I, Harazawa, from WORK101, who explores the "work culture," go and talk to people I'm interested in in this WORK101 Interview. Tell me about your "work"!
In the first part, we interviewed online facilitator Aoki-san. This is the second part. In the first part , we mainly talked about Aoki-san himself, but in the second part, he talked more about his "work", such as what he values in his work and where he works. This time, we will talk with writer Sugimoto-san, who has been with us since the planning stage.
A facilitator's job is to listen.
--Through various connections, you have been deeply involved in Monosus as an online facilitator. I would like to ask you again what kind of work a facilitator does.
Aoki: My job is to listen. My job is to listen to the feelings and desires of the people who are participating. If there are several people there, I feel like we are interacting with each other and helping to create something together.
Mr. Aoki facilitates the BAGN corporate training camp .
--What exactly do you mean by "helping"?
Aoki: I think the first step is to understand each other well. Both parties need to understand that "that person is thinking about that." Once there is a certain level of mutual understanding, you can move on to the next stage of creating something together by asking "So, what do you want to do?" If you can do that, I think it's a sufficient job.
-- I think the first thing that's difficult is to understand each other. But when you're there as a facilitator, I feel like I can concentrate on listening to what people have to say.
Aoki: I also think that concentration is transferable. When I concentrate on listening, it seems like it's easier for the people around me to concentrate on listening too. For example, if there's a fire and someone is desperately trying to put out the fire, the people around me will also concentrate on putting out the fire. If you're like, "I'm going to put out the fire!", the people around me are more likely to join in putting out the fire. On the other hand, if I'm looking at a burning house and saying, "Oh, wow, it's a fire," the people around me will think, "It's okay for this house to be on fire." I think it's the same feeling.
--I think that's Aoki's charm. If Aoki is trying to put out the fire, it's likely that others will do the same. Why do you think Aoki is able to do that on his own?
Aoki: I wonder why. I don't know myself. I don't know, but I've seen many good scenes by doing that. I feel from experience that listening to everyone in Monosus makes Monosus improve on its own. It feels like if I don't try to lead everyone in Monosus, they will automatically go where they want to go.
--I really want to do it well, and I think this is the best way! Is that okay?
Aoki: I think that's fine. I can function because there are people who think that way. It's a mutually complementary relationship. If I were to compare it to baseball, the participants in the meeting are the ones who throw the ball, and I'm the catcher. My job is to sit back and say, "I'll catch it!" It would be annoying if the catcher said, "I want to pitch too," (laughs). That wouldn't be a battery, so I'll be ready to say, "The catcher will catch any ball!" and Shogo will throw what he wants to do with all his might. That's a good thing.
-- Sometimes it feels like you're throwing it in a completely different direction...
Aoki: On the other hand, if Shogo thinks, "Wait, what does that colleague want to do?" and takes a catcher's stance and says, "Throw me any kind of ball," the other person might throw it to him. I think it is the facilitator's job to take that kind of catcher's stance.
--I see. With a catcher like you, I can throw with confidence. It must be reassuring to have someone who listens to you, not just in terms of work.
Aoki: I think so too.
"80% preparation, 80% on the day" - How can we work without being "10%"?
--Next, I would like to ask you about your working style. I think that you place great importance on advance preparation. When you visit a place for the first time, you walk around carefully looking at the surroundings to see what kind of buildings are there. I get the impression that you spend a lot of time preparing while imagining "what kind of people will be there" and "what do you want to talk about today?"
Aoki and participants take a walk around the venue before the workshop begins.
Aoki: I work with the belief that "preparation is 80%." I often come into contact with people I've never met before, and even if it's the same team members, there's a high chance that they're not the same person they were a week ago, but a new, improved version of themselves. I think it's important not to neglect preparation, especially when I'm in a new field or interacting with new people, so I prepare as hard as I can.
However, when the day arrives, I think, "The day itself is 80%." I try to throw away everything I've prepared as much as possible. 80% preparation and 80% on the day, which doesn't add up to 10% (laughs). I think that's just right.
--What do you mean by "throwing everything away" on the day?
Aoki: I do preliminary research and think about where I should go, what I might be able to do, and what tools I should prepare. But on the day, I often decide, "I don't need to use them."
For example, even if I made 30 slides, I think it's important to have the courage to only use the first four and throw away the rest. I often apologize to the backstage staff and don't use the ones I prepared.
--It's the same with this interview. I prepare things I want to ask, but maybe my goal is to get it all out. I feel like all the preparation I've done will go to waste. When you say "throw away," you don't mean that you throw it away on purpose, but that you do it when necessary, right?
Aoki: Yes, that's right. I think of my job as being a bit like dating.
--So, is this a date...?
Aoki: You go on a date because you want to get along with the girl. To make it a good date, you want to do some preliminary research and prepare things like which restaurant is good, or where you can see a beautiful sunset, etc.
"I definitely want to take you here because you can see a beautiful sunset!" I thought to myself, and asked the girl, "How about watching the sunset?" If she said, "Sounds great, the sunset!" I definitely wanted to take her there, but what if she said, "Eh, the sunset? I'm not interested"?
"Well, I did a little scouting," so you insist on showing her the sunset, or go somewhere that she's interested in. If it works as a date, she'll be happy. But if you insist, "I went to all the trouble of preparing it," then it will be a failed date.
-Yes, yes, that's true.
Aoki: It's not important to "do what you've prepared," but rather to "have a good date." I think it's very important to have the courage to discard the preliminary scouting and preparations you've made for a good date on the day you make a decision. The same goes for presentation materials. If you think the other person isn't interested, or if you think this is wrong, just throw them away and focus on what the other person is most interested in at the moment, and you're more likely to have a good time.
Sugimoto: (At this point, Sugimoto, the writer who was listening to the story with us, couldn't help but say) I also think that the person who forces the sunset on you is cute. That's fine too.
Aoki: Like, "How about my sunset? Isn't it pretty?" That's a tricky part. Yeah, I understand that.
Sugimoto's comment made everyone burst out laughing.
Aoki: I don't think that facilitators or "fluff" are the only good things. I do it as my function, but I don't think the world is complete just because of that. So when I see people who push things hard, I think "They're completely different from me," but I think we can have a complementary relationship. People who say all sorts of things on the spur of the moment, and people who listen to them. Sometimes it works because there are both, and I think both are important. So I get along well with hard-core leaders and people who are aggressive. I really work well when I work with them.
--Is there a secret to maintaining a good relationship even if you're different types of people?
Keep exploring how you can function.
Aoki: I think some people are suited to certain jobs and some aren't. I'm better at pulling than pushing. I think it's because of the structure of my brain, my body, and my personality that I'm better at it.
Going back to the first question, I was originally interested in "changing the environment and society," but I realized that I was more interested in "what do people want to do?" and that's when things started going well. I think that people who are good at their jobs know how they function and can put themselves in that role.
--I think there are a few things that can be used as indicators of whether you are functioning properly. Like grades and the evaluations of others. On the other hand, it's also important to feel that what you're doing is fun, rewarding, and meaningful. I think it's difficult to know from which perspective to look at it. How can you do it without losing sight of your original purpose? I think you need a strong mentality to do that.
Aoki: It's really difficult. As I swim there, I also think about how much mental and physical strength is required. I think how amazing it is that I've survived this long, and I think everyone else has done the same to make it this far.
I think that no matter what job someone does, they will receive criticism from those around them and think that it isn't suited to them, or they will receive great praise for something they didn't think was particularly good, and they will think, "Hmm? Maybe I can function better in this position," and so they will gradually search for a position that fits them better, change jobs, and that's how the person in front of me now came to be.
--I see. I will continue to struggle.
Aoki: Let's keep struggling. Seriously.
The anxiety of the city and the security of the countryside that I felt while living on Awaji Island
--You can see beautiful trees behind you, but your home is in Awajishima, right? I'd like to hear about your work style based in Awajishima.
Although you probably do a lot of your work online now, you often come to Tokyo and Kamiyama, so I wonder if that's inconvenient for you to work all over the country. I'd like to ask you why you moved here.
An outdoor meeting hosted by Mr. Aoki on Awaji Island
Aoki: I lived in Tokyo for 18 years, from the age of 18 to 36, and after getting married and having children, I realized that raising children in Tokyo was difficult.
To begin with, neither my wife nor I wanted to live in Tokyo. Although we do occasionally go to Tokyo for study or work, we felt that the countryside was more suitable for us. Spending time outdoors, such as in nature or camping, is important, but in Tokyo, that is limited. Even going to the beach takes time from Mitaka, where I lived, and the roads are crowded. Since we were born and raised near the sea, poor access to the sea is a bigger problem than poor access to work.
The same goes for the environment in which our children grow up. I felt that it was a bit limiting to raise my children in a place where we couldn't go out into nature without spending a lot of time to do so. Then, the Great East Japan Earthquake made me think about where to live, and I looked around Japan, but we decided that Awaji Island, where my wife's parents live, would be a good place.
--Awaji Island was Kyo's (wife's) hometown, wasn't it?
Aoki: That's right. At that time, my wife was sick and not feeling well. It's hard to go to a new place and make new friends when you're not feeling well, but here, my parents and old friends are there. That's why I felt a completely different sense of security. It turned out to be a good place to come. I thought it would be harder to get to work, but when I said, "I'll go anywhere," I was invited to come all the way from Hokkaido to Okinawa.
--It takes about 2 to 3 hours to get to Tokyo.
Aoki: That's right. You can arrive at Haneda at 8:30 in the morning, start work, and come back on the last flight at 7:30 in the evening. The distance in terms of time is not that far.
--Is Awaji Island's nature really its best feature?
Aoki: Nature is great. Especially since the spread of the COVID-19 infection, I'm glad I live here. Human society is in a state of confusion, but insects, snakes, grass, and trees are steadily thriving. We humans are the only ones panicking and saying how difficult things are; the natural world is not in a difficult situation at all. Nature has saved us.
--Since the COVID-19 outbreak, I think a lot of people are interested in living in rural areas. If most companies are going to allow people to work from home, I think people are wondering, "Is it really a good idea to go back to the office?" I think everyone is thinking, "If I could work from home, I don't have to live in the city, I can live and work wherever I want."
Mr. Aoki, you've been working from Awajishima for the past eight years, and I think it's simply a great place to be. Taking into account the current situation, what other benefits do you think there are to living in the countryside?
Aoki: Even when it comes to things like food and energy, there is an instability in big cities. I think the chain of anxiety is strong.
-A chain of anxiety in the city, eh?
Aoki: Yes. In the city, once you start feeling anxious, both mentally and physically, you feel anxious again. If something runs out at the supermarket, it's gone all at once. In the countryside, there's no problem because there's rice in the warehouse. There's no hoarding, and it feels like things aren't just run by money.
Kotoya, an old house managed by Mr. Aoki
Aoki: If you study wild plants a little, you'll find that there are some edible ones in the garden. The countryside is strong in terms of security. The old house I manage, called "Kotoya," doesn't have electricity, gas, or running water, but with firewood and well water, we can survive for a few days.
During the Great East Japan Earthquake, I felt that just because the electricity was cut off, toilets wouldn't flush and there was no water. Cities are usually convenient, but they are weak in emergencies. It's good to be able to move around for work, but still be on stable ground.
-- At first glance, it sounds like you need some skill. Like a well... I've never used one.
Aoki: It's okay because all you have to do is pump water (laughs). But there are things you need skills for, like chopping firewood.
- I envy the countryside.
Aoki: Exactly. If you ask me which is better, I think there are a lot of people who actually like the countryside, but there must be quite a few people who live in the city because they have to work. I think those people would have more fun if they went out to the countryside.
WORK101 is blessed with "good input"
-Finally, I'd like to hear about WORK101.
The first time I worked with you was at a BAGN training camp. You were there as a facilitator, but what did you think of WORK101?
The exterior of WORK101, the Kamiyama base. The site was formerly a JA branch office.
Aoki: I think it was the site of a former agricultural cooperative branch office. The location there is excellent. It occupies a prime location in the village. I always borrow the power of the land and the energy of the place for my work, so I felt like I was already receiving input. Ichinomiya Shrine, a roadside station, and hot springs are within walking distance, and you can eat delicious local food there. Overall, there is no reason to fail there.
--You mentioned earlier that soil is important.
Aoki: That's right. If you have good input, your output will definitely be good as well. Just the fact that you "came to Kamiyama" is good input, and the fact that you "ate delicious food" or "went into a nice hot spring" are other good inputs.
WORK101 was a great success just by being able to set up there. And everyone worked together to make it a good space. They were thinking hard about things like "Let's play some records," "Let's line up the firewood," and "Let's decorate it like this." If participants can come to the meeting the moment they enter the room thinking, "Oh, I'm glad I came here," then it won't be a bad outcome.
--I feel more on edge now.
Aoki: It will get even better if we create more and more welcomes. For example, today before the interview, I received "Kamapan" bread from Monosus, which made me feel welcome. My wife loves Kamapan bread and wants to go to Kamiyama, but has difficulty making it. So it's a welcome to have delicious bread delivered there. So, when I go to the interview in this state, I feel comfortable. In the same way, it's good to think about what you can prepare to welcome someone who visits WORK101. Prepare something that that person will like. I think it will work if the welcome is conveyed.
--So you have to think carefully about the other person. Welcome, we'll make it.
WORK101 in progress. The interior is being renovated, and the furniture is Snow Peak gear.
--I'd like to ask if you have any expectations for WORK101 in the future.
Aoki: By the way, what does the number "101" mean?
--The address of the WORK101 building is "Kamikaku 101". And another thing, in American university classes, it seems that "class 101 is the basics". It also includes the meaning of thinking about work from the basics.
Aoki: Great. It would be good to promote it as the place to create a space that fits that concept. If you say, "By discussing here, we can make things better from the ground up," I think people who want to do that kind of thing will apply.
For example, if someone comes to you saying, "It's been 30 years since our company was founded, and we're here to commemorate our 30th anniversary and think about what we should do at WORK101 for the next 30 years," then they're already prepared. I think there's a lot of potential in spreading the word that "WORK101 is this kind of place" and inviting customers who want that. Because people rely on the power of the place.
-We will do our best to create such a good environment.
Aoki: I'm really looking forward to it. I'd love to work on several projects there.
--On the other hand, what do you do when you feel like this is a bad place?
Aoki: The reason a place is bad is because the person who manages it doesn't love it. Maybe the whiteboard is dirty. Maybe the pens that are there are hardly any left, or there's trash lying around. In those cases, wipe the floor yourself, open the windows to let in fresh air, and clean up. That will make the place twice as good.
--Cleaning is about loving the space.
Aoki: That's right. Before a match, sumo wrestlers sprinkle salt and clean the area with a broom to prepare the ground. I think that kind of effort is necessary.
We asked Aoki about the society and future he wants to create.
--Mr. Aoki, your desire to change society has remained unchanged since you were a student, but I wondered if you have changed your weapons or your approach. What kind of society do you want to create now?
Aoki: Ever since I was a child, I've thought that humans have been too much of a nuisance to other living things. I want to tell people that it's okay for humans to live, but let's learn to interact with them in a way that doesn't cause them any trouble. I think the new coronavirus has scolded us, telling us to "get serious about humanity!", and put the brakes on for once. I want everyone to experience that feeling more deeply.
--You've always been interested in and involved with the global environment, and it seems like you're very "human." Why is that?
Aoki: Humans are the ones causing environmental destruction. At the same time, I believe in humans. If you ask people what they really want to do, I don't think anyone would say they want to destroy nature or make the environment worse. I feel that if everyone just listens to their true voices, things could move in a positive direction.
-So you believe that if everyone could have their voice heard, not just in the conference room but the whole planet would move in a positive direction?
Aoki: Yes.
--It's often hard to hear my own voice. I think the location also has an influence on that. Is it because I'm in the city, or would I be able to hear it if I were in the mountains?
Aoki: That's right. That happens when you're in a place with a lot of noise or pressure to listen to all kinds of things around you. But even if you're in the countryside, if you just look at your smartphone every day, you'll be overwhelmed by the noise. I think it's not just about where you live, but also about what you're conscious of and what you take in.
--If you're in a city, you have to listen to yourself more carefully. I'd like to go to Awaji Island soon.
Aoki: Sure. Let's talk around the campfire.
After the interview
Although the conversation turned into a problem-solving session, the first WORK101 interview ended without any problems. Aoki-san, whose job as a facilitator is to "listen," listened to me attentively from start to finish, and I felt at ease during the conversation.
This time, I talked to Mr. Aoki about "working", and I was surprised and encouraged when he told me, "I'm the same, I think about the same worries every day." And Mr. Aoki's stoicism, asking himself every day, "Can I die today?" made me realize once again the importance of listening to your true voice.
There are many things in my daily work, such as anxiety, joy, and difficulties, but what does "work" mean to me? I'm not sure yet, but I've received some advice for WORK101, so I think I can take another step forward. Thank you very much, Mr. Aoki.
HARASAWA Shogo