Hello everyone, this is Harazawa from WORK101 .
Although the self-restraint measures taken to prevent the spread of COVID-19 are gradually being lifted, I believe that the way we work and the values related to it have changed significantly before and after the self-restraint measures. Given this situation, I have been pondering every day about what we at WORK101, whose theme is "exploring the culture of work," should do now.
So I decided to use this Monosasu website as a platform to interview people whose work styles intrigue me, Harazawa, and compile the interviews in the form of dialogue.
For the first time, we interviewed Masayuki Aoki, who is an online facilitator based in Awajishima. What is a facilitator? Why Awajishima? What is the work like? There were many things we wanted to ask in the interview.
Kyoko Sugimoto, a writer who is involved in the planning of the Monosas site, also attended the interview from Kyoto. She listened to the interview while shaking her head and saying "yes, yes."
The place where Aoki was interviewed. Surrounded by greenery, it looks pleasant.
Aoki-san taught me "Three rules for interviews"
--Due to the spread of COVID-19, social conditions are changing, with working from home being encouraged. In this situation, we were thinking about what we could do as "WORK101," and we thought it would be a good idea to interview people about work styles on the "Monosasu Site," which is a place where we share our current situation. So we asked Mr. Aoki to be the first person to do this memorable first interview.
Aoki: I'm very happy. Thank you very much. This is the first time.
--Today I'd like to hear a lot about your working style, Mr. Aoki.
Aoki: I'm very sorry to say this at the beginning of an interview, but there are "three rules for interviews." Whether or not you use them is aside, here they are as a little tidbit...
Aoki-san writes down what he wants to communicate on a sheet of construction paper and shows it to us.
Aoki: The first is "You can ask me anything." If you listen to me thinking that you can ask me anything about me, I will be happy to talk. The second is "You don't have to say anything you don't want to say." This ensures the freedom of both the narrator and the listener. The third is "You can talk even if you're not asked." Interviews tend to be structured around answering questions, but if something comes up, isn't it okay to talk freely? That's what I mean. These are the rules I learned from my interview mentor, Tetsuo Kato. I hope you find them useful.
-Hearing your story just now made me realize once again how glad I am that Aoki was the first guest.
It's more interesting to "create" social structures than to "accept" them
First of all, I'd like to ask you about yourself. Where are you from?
Aoki: Kumano is the area on the border between Wakayama and Mie prefectures, on the southern side of the Kii Peninsula, where the old pilgrimage route known as the Kumano Kodo is located. I was born in Shingu City and grew up in a small village called Udono Village in Minamimuro District, Mie Prefecture, and I went back and forth between Wakayama and Mie Prefectures.
--And now you work as a facilitator based in Awajishima. What made you want to pursue that career?
Aoki: I lived at home until my third year of high school, then I moved to Tokyo for university. I was very interested in environmental issues, so I decided to go to a place where I could study environmental issues, and entered the Department of Environment and Resources at the Faculty of Agriculture, Tokyo University of Agriculture and Technology. However, the classes were surprisingly boring. I thought it would be more interesting to take action myself, so during my first and second years of university, I got involved in social activities such as environmental NGOs and volunteer groups for environmental issues, apart from my classes.
--Was the class not interesting?
Aoki: It wasn't interesting. I don't think there are many interesting classes at any university, but I feel like it was more disappointing than I expected.
The only interesting thing was that one of the teachers said, "If it's so boring, why don't you make your own interesting classes?" and had us make our own classes for the second semester of the first year. We decided on the environmental issues we wanted to study, invited guests from outside the school, and created classes by attending various lecturers in an omnibus format, such as people from the Ministry of the Environment, NGOs, and companies that work on the environment. I thought, "Oh, taking classes isn't interesting, but making them is interesting."
I think the same is true of society and the world at large. It's boring to just accept the way society works, but it's interesting to create your own system.
Harazawa and Aoki. The interview was conducted online between Yokohama and Awaji Island.
--Hmm. That sounds like a lot of fun, but it must be hard work to make it and take a lot of energy, and I feel like you might lose sight of your purpose while doing it.
Aoki: Yeah, I often lose sight of it. It's okay (laughs). Every morning I wake up and I think, "What am I living for?"
--Wow! That's surprising.
Aoki: I don't make any plans at all. There are a lot of people out there who make visions or five-year plans, but I'm not good at that at all.
The balance between receiving work and organizing work. I think about it based on whether I can die today or not.
-- I often get lost too. I tend to cram too much work into my schedule to avoid getting lost.
Aoki: I tend to do the same thing. I feel supported by my work.
-- I think there are two types of work. Those who think about what kind of work they want to do, and those who have a set task and want to do it as efficiently as possible. It's hard to balance the two. Sometimes I try to fill my anxiety with the work I've been given. Do you have that kind of anxiety, Mr. Aoki?
Aoki: Yes. There is less risk in receiving work, and if you do what you are told, you get paid, so it's really easy. But is that really okay? I also feel like I want to try thinking for myself, making things myself, taking my own risks. I think I have both because I'm human.
Some people balance their work with their hobbies. I think it's also possible to incorporate both into your work. Humans are creatures that want to find balance somewhere.
--It's still difficult to get a sense of balance there. How do you manage to achieve that balance?
Aoki: I feel better if I occasionally have some work that I make myself, even if I don't get any requests. It's like a cat that only eats cat food occasionally going out to eat grass.
Planning something on my own, deciding the finances, and hosting it at my own risk, even though no one has asked me to, is also a way of finding balance within myself.
I've been a meeting facilitator for about 20 years. But because people stopped gathering in meeting rooms due to the effects of COVID-19, I lost my job. On April 1, I effectively declared my retirement from facilitating and started over as an online meeting facilitator.
Mr. Aoki works as a conference facilitator.
Aoki: When I started out as an online facilitator, no one would ask me for work, so I started doing things like online talks with old friends and online workshops, and doing more and more hosting. When I showed people that "we can do this online," they started asking me to do more work.
Being a host is a kind of sales. When you say, "I can do this," "I'm thinking about this," or "I want to help in this way," orders come in. Then, as the number of orders increases, you get busy and feel grateful, but then you think, "Wait a minute." You can't help but look back and ask yourself, "What is it that I really need to do right now?"
So this morning, I woke up at 4:30, thinking, "This is no good. If I don't do what I need to do now, I'll regret it." Steve Jobs once looked in the mirror and asked himself, "If today were the last day of my life, would I really want to do what I'm going to do today?" This morning, when I thought, "What if today was the last day of my life?", I realized that I had to hold a workshop called, "What have you learned from COVID?"
The economy has come to a halt, and everyone has quit everything, stopped going to work or school, and stayed home, which must have made them feel something. But now that the state of emergency has been lifted, people are starting to go back to school and work, but I think we need to take this opportunity to review what we've learned from COVID-19, or we'll miss out on something important.
That's a job that nobody would ask me to do. This morning, I wrote a proposal for when and where to hold the event, and I was like, "Ah, I'm satisfied!" That's how I keep the balance.
--I sometimes don't know if I'm balancing things. I think maybe there's still some part of the work I do as an organizer that I haven't fully become an "organizer." In order to make it my own, I need to ask myself more questions every day like Mr. Banban Aoki and do more of what I really want to do.
Aoki: Please give it a try. I think the level of seriousness you show will affect the quality of your work. If you take it seriously as a project that you will devote your life to, the chances of it being more interesting will increase. That's because you'll have more energy.
--However, receiving work is what is required of receiving work, and I think it's important to do that. I don't want to think that I'm running away, but I think that everyone's hands are physically filled up with that. When that happens, you start to neglect being the "host." I'd like to hear if there are any techniques to prevent this from happening.
Aoki: Look in the mirror and ask yourself, "Is this the right way to die?" If that makes you happy and you can die, then that's fine. Being a craftsman who receives work is necessary and admirable. If you hear a voice inside of you that says, "That's not good enough," then you won't be able to die in peace unless you listen to that voice.
--Yes, there is some confidence, but the voice sounds a little unsure.
Aoki: Hahaha (laughs), I understand that too.
--You'll start to hear that voice a little bit now.
Aoki: If you listen too much to other people's voices, you can make mistakes, but as long as you listen to your own voice, you won't make so many mistakes, that's what I understand so far.
Mr. Aoki wants to be "Otofu"!? "Working" is about "functioning as yourself"
--By the way, Aoki-san, you mentioned your favorite foods in your profile. Squid, konjac, etc.
Aoki: I like squid and konjac.
--I read somewhere that you like plain food, and I feel like that's related to your personality. I have the impression that you're always there for me. When I saw your favorite foods, I felt like they represented you.
Aoki: I also like things like wheat gluten. When it comes to sukiyaki, I want to be wheat gluten the most.
As a being that can absorb all the delicious ingredients. I want to absorb all the delicious things and put them in your mouth. When I was young, I had a presence like a chili pepper. I was also called a walking knife. I liked spicy food. I still like spicy food.
The conversation started about favorite foods and took an unexpected turn.
--But now it's tofu...
Aoki: I feel more comfortable and able to work well in terms of my work and functions. I think working is about whether or not you are functioning properly. When I feel like I did a good job and I'm satisfied, I try to work to the fullest extent of my abilities and characteristics, and think, "I can die today."
Death is an important theme. When I start each work, I want to do it in a way that makes me think, "Ah, today was the last work for Masayuki Aoki." Because I can't decide when it will be the last time.
--I felt something like chili pepper in the part about being okay with dying today... I'd like to hear about the "process" that led you to go from chili pepper to gluten.
Aoki: It's originally a chili pepper. It hits people coldly and sharply. That's how it functions when it's left in the wild. But I've experienced that it has hurt so many people. I'm good at hurting people, but I also felt that it's not so good. I've cut people enough, so I feel like it's time to put away the sword.
--I can't imagine Aoki being such a chili pepper.
Aoki: People who knew me when I was younger often ask me, "Marky used to be really scary, why did he get so mellow?" The reason is... Well, um...
When I was a student, I had this feeling of, "Let's revolutionize the world!", but among my classmates at the time, there was someone who was like an older brother to me. I feel like I created the entrance to being a facilitator together with him.
He was a guy who liked to drink. He often took me to bars and we talked about life. I learned a lot from him and I loved him, but he became like an alcoholic. One time, when I was working as a facilitator in pairs, he came to work after drinking, so I got really angry and questioned him and hit him hard. Because he was still a chilli pepper.
Aoki-san slowly talks as he recalls those days.
Aoki: After that, he became a little depressed and couldn't work with me anymore... It was like we parted ways and walked different paths. After that, he lost his job and retreated from the world, and I felt like I was the one who triggered that. Eventually, his health deteriorated and he developed diabetes, and with no work and less interaction with society, he became depressed, and eventually he died.
I wanted to save him, but I felt like I had let him die because I hadn't listened to his SOS properly. I thought, this is not the way to live my life.
I was forced to learn that I was lacking something when I couldn't repair the relationship with someone I thought was a friend because we had similar aspirations, and we broke up after I was separated for some reason. I had to retrain myself to understand what it means to listen to others, and I was reexamining my own way of being.
And what's interesting is that after that incident, I started to become more and more skilled as a facilitator.
--If a coworker started drinking right now, how would you respond?
Aoki: As a work partner, I would be angry, but I think I can cover it up just fine.
I can also do things like, "Stay out of the way until you sober up. I'll hold the line until then." If I need to explain something to a customer, I can start by saying, "I'm sorry, my partner has been drinking." Because I'm a tofu. I can accept the situation.
You could also say, "Today, we will have a facilitator who is drinking and a facilitator who is not drinking." That's how the situation works. If I had been able to do that, I wouldn't have killed him, but I was a little more immature and a little more hot-headed at the time, so I couldn't do that.
--I too sometimes get harsh with my coworkers and end up fighting with them when I ask them, "What do you think about that?"
It's good to have a relationship where you can say what you want to say, but when we end up clashing, I want to do something about it. It's difficult to absorb the people around you and settle things like Aoki-san does, so I wonder when I'll ever be able to do that.
I really felt at ease talking to Aoki-san, and the relaxed, comfortable time passed by in an instant.
So far, we have mainly heard about Aoki himself, but we have also seen some unexpected sides to him, such as the daily anxiety he feels at work and his naturally sharp personality.
In the second part , we will focus on Aoki's work as an online facilitator and go deeper into the topic of "work."
HARASAWA Shogo