Tell me about your "work"! This is a corner where I, Harazawa, go and talk to people I'm interested in. Continuing from the last time, this is an interview with Toyoshima Hideki. (The cover is a scene from work at an art event that Toyoshima was the curator of. Apparently he runs from venue to venue.)
In the first part , we talked about how Toyoshima lives his life and what experiences he had that led him to live the way he does now. In the second part, I asked him about what I felt while working together on the WORK101 project "Kamiyama Hiking Club" and what he thinks are important in the workplace.
Fair dealings. Lasting relationships.
Harazawa: I've only known you for a few months, but you always think about whether something is fair or not. I think that's really important. When we were talking about the Kamiyama Hiking Club, you really care about whether it's fair to the people who participate, to us who run it, to Monosus, the company, and to you yourself.
Toyoshima: Yes, I really think so. It doesn't have to be "work" either, it can be friends, family, or even a marriage. I think it's tough when that feeling of unfairness continues for a long time. You might think it's okay if it happens once, but if it continues for a long time, the relationship itself becomes unsustainable, right?
So, even with this "Kamiyama Hiking Club", I really have no intention of making a little money from Monosus. If I can do something that benefits Monosus and they can provide a guarantee that I can pay from that benefit, then I can do what I'm good at and make it part of my livelihood. On the other hand, there's no reason for me to come here to serve them. So I just hope that the exchange here is done properly.
A look at the "Kamiyama Hiking Club" activities organized by Mr. Toyoshima
Harazawa: I also thought that Toyoshima could see each other clearly. I think it's important to be able to see each other clearly. It could even be someone you don't have much of a relationship with, or even a customer. The relationship should be fair, like "I give you money and in return I get a service" or "I get money and I make something." You do something that has benefits, so you get a fee in return. But it's a difficult point, and it's easy to lose sight of that. I feel like if you don't observe the other person carefully, you'll make some kind of mistake.
TOYOSHIMA: Hmm, I guess so. I don't want to cheat either, and I don't like the feeling of being deceived.
When I was working as one of the managers, I think there were times when I wanted to make a little money. I think I wanted to make a profit where I could to pay everyone's salaries and to keep the company going. When I became a freelancer, I consciously created a life where I didn't need that much money, so I didn't have to make money my top priority.
Harazawa: So there were times like that.
Toyoshima: Of course. I think that happens to everyone, especially people who run companies.
Harazawa: You also mentioned that before GM Projects, when you were starting up Graf yourself, you decided to make it into a separate organization. Is that related to the above?
TOYOSHIMA: Well, there's a fairness to it, but I also felt it was barren. I started graf with everyone because I didn't want to become a businessman, I wanted an environment as a creator. I wanted to do some really interesting, stimulating creative work there. When a company grows steadily, management ability naturally becomes important.
However, I also realized that it's extremely difficult to earn a normal living in the arts field, and that it was beyond my ability as a businessperson. Rather than fretting or worrying about it, I thought I would be better off doing something closer to expression.
So, although I don't think it will happen, if I were to start a company again, I would definitely want to do it with a business partner who has excellent management skills and is willing to work together with me.
The Kamiyama Hiking Club also gave a lecture on UL hiking.
"It would be better to use Toyoshima in that position"
Harazawa: Toyoshima-san, of course, pays attention to the other person, but he also has a good eye for what he is good at and what he should be doing. He understands himself well.
Toyoshima: I was in the soccer club in elementary and junior high school.
Harazawa: How is it different if you're in the soccer club?
Toyoshima: If you're fast you can play as a wing.
Harazawa: Ah, you're talking about position.
TOYOSHIMA: In soccer, it's decided what a midfielder should do. There are things they're good at and characters that become the characteristics of the team, and they can create different strategies, but basically, that position should be played by someone who is suitable for that position. In sports, that's definitely the case. I think it's the same thing.
Sugimoto: How do you grasp what you're good at and what you should do as a person when you become an adult, and how does that relate to your current job?
TOYOSHIMA: In terms of the WORK101 project we did together this time, Harazawa explained WORK101 to me as soon as we met. He said, "In the end, Monosus will make this kind of investment, so if you ask me to return it in this kind of profit, I can't do it." That's because I'm not good at the business side of things. I think it's important to clearly say that you can't do something. Like, don't take on a job you can't do.
A corporate training camp organized by WORK101, an organization that works on the theme of "exploring work culture"
Harazawa: Yes, as soon as I explained it to him he said, "Yes, I understand." He said, "I'm not good at developing a business, so I'll leave it to you to commercialize it." Looking back, that was a great help.
TOYOSHIMA: I think it's fine for the person with the idea and the person who makes a profit from that idea to be different people. If I were to act like a planner and start proposing things like, "How about this business model?", it would actually make things less efficient.
If I make something I'm not good at part of my job, the other person will be frustrated when things don't go well. I think it would be better for both of us if they thought from the beginning, "That's not something I should ask of you, Toyoshima." So, if I need someone to support me with something I can't do, I think it would be better to have someone who can.
Sugimoto: Asking others to do things that you can't do yourself also means creating an environment where you can focus on what you want to do and can do.
Toyoshima: That's what it means, if you look at it the other way around. It's like I'm saying, "It's more profitable to use Toyoshima there." If it's a project that I enjoy, I'll probably do it for a fairly low price, and I'll even give you a lot of ideas. I think it's more profitable to use Toyoshima in that kind of free environment, where we can have fun together. (laughs)
It's easier to get good results for both parties if you match your strengths and interests with something that benefits the other person, such as feeling glad you did it, that it helped you, or that you are now able to do something that you couldn't do on your own.
Toyoshima's joy in work comes from "people"
Sugimoto: I don't think Toyoshima has ever said things like, "This is what I want to do" or "I want to have this kind of impact on society." Rather, he talks a lot about making the people he works with happy. I think that's a really important point.
Toyoshima: That may be true.
Sugimoto: Where do you find joy in your work?
TOYOSHIMA: Well, I think it's like playing in the park as a child. I think everyone likes to think up fun ways to play. There are boys and girls, small and big children, and it's more fun for everyone if you create a way to play that everyone there doesn't get bored of until the end and thinks, "I want to play again." I think it's the same in work.
When running a commercial business, no one would be happy if there was no profit at all.
In that case, it would be better to face the setting of how much profit you want to make and create a method that allows you to do it by combining your ideas and what you can do. If you try to achieve an impossible profit target with members who can't do it, you probably won't be able to do it and you won't get a happy result.
I often say that it all starts with the people.
For example, let's say a company has a mission like "Create a business with this amount of sales" and they assign people to it and start working on it. If it doesn't work, they change the person in charge or the client. If you keep changing people to achieve the mission, it will become a situation where the most important thing is the mission, not the people involved.
Rather than that, I think we can create a project with a higher success rate if we have a 31-year-old man here who works in sales, Harazawa-kun, and is into hiking, and we also have writer Sugimoto-san and I, and we think about what we can do together.
Harazawa: Ah...that makes me so happy.
Toyoshima: That being said, I don't think it's possible for the three of us to aim for an annual turnover of 500 million yen. But it might be possible if we could make about 100,000 yen a month as a side business. If we each aim for 400,000 yen a year, we'll say, "Maybe we can do it!"
When we think about what to do, for example, Sugimoto-san says, "I can write because I'm a writer," I say, "I can do outdoor activities," and Harazawa-kun says, "I can do sales." It's not surprising that projects can be done by bringing together each of our skills, and we don't plan anything beyond our capabilities from the start. I think the success rate is very high. I think that's a good thing.
Harazawa: It feels good to have a sense of fitting together. It's not like there's a mission from the beginning and people are gathered together like soldiers saying, "Let's all go together." Each person has their own personality. When you think, "What can we do when these people get together?" or "What do we want to do on top of that?", something will become clear. And it's not just anyone who can go towards the goal that comes into view.
If you think like that, working will be more natural and you'll be able to continue. I can imagine it will be more fun for us too.
TOYOSHIMA: What "the three of us can do" could potentially become a business that makes hundreds of millions of yen, or it could end up not being a money-making job and just being a game of badminton during your lunch break.
Even within the company, when starting a new project, I feel like the chances of it coming to fruition are higher if three good friends from different departments come up with a proposal for a project within the company rather than setting a mission from the beginning. On the other hand, they also have to decide for themselves what constitutes success.
However, if there is too little pressure, it may not work, so in some cases it may be better to create a relationship with just the right amount of pressure, or if you feel like you can do it freestyle, it may be better to do it outside the company. I think it depends on the members and the goal setting.
When we try to do something together, it might end with "Let's all go on a trip together," or it might end with "Let's start a company," or it might end with "Let's get married." There are so many possibilities, you never know where it's going to go. But if it starts with "people first," I think it will lead to something that makes sense.
A new interpretation, a chain of exciting moments is sure to occur!
Harazawa: A few years ago, we held a workshop with all the Monosus members. Each person wrote down what they wanted to do on a piece of paper and posted it. Then, we could join in on what someone else wanted to do, but the idea was to ultimately realize one of them. In fact, there are several projects that are still in the works as a result of that workshop, but the truth is that I couldn't write anything at the time.
Sugimoto: What would you write now?
Harazawa: Hiking. As with the project with Toyoshima this time, the Ultralight (UL) hiking style is a perfect fit for both work and life. (UL hiking is a hiking style that originated in the United States for traversing long trails. By keeping your luggage as light as possible, you can travel farther and get deeper into nature.)
Luggage for one night and two days. Bring only what you really need, and only as much as you need.
Because of that, each of my choices has changed, and I feel like I can do things without straining myself. I've always been a big spender. Even though I don't have a lot of money, I buy things that are over-specified or the same thing over and over again. My family always says to me, "Do you really need that many shoes?" (laughs) When I heard about the UL hiking philosophy and methods, I thought, "Oh, this might be good," and it just clicked. When I read the book and heard about it from Mr. Toyoshima, it just clicked.
Recently, I've been going to the mountains a lot, and I've been feeling the benefits of both my body and my mind. My perspective has also changed when I go shopping. I feel like I'm choosing things that fit me and that I can afford.
When your luggage is light, your steps are lighter and you feel like you can go anywhere.
Sugimoto: Has your relationship with the world and objects changed?
Harazawa: That's right. I think UL Hiking has some great hints on the theme of "working" that we're interviewing this time. As Toyoshima-san often says, just being conscious of "Do I really want to work that much? Do I really need that much money?" will make things look different. I think there's a big difference between choosing a luxury car without thinking about it and choosing a car that you need because you have a real life.
Doing so will change the way you spend your time. You stay at the office all the time, working and working, earning a salary that you want. But if you live in the city with the money you earn, half of it will be gone. You suddenly stop and think, "What do you really want?" I feel that there is a possibility that things will continue to change in the future.
TOYOSHIMA: I think Harazawa-kun has just come across this new idea called "UL hiking" and is probably excited about it. If he continues to go to the mountains every week, take time off to go on long hikes that take several days, and keep practicing, I think he will come up with his own interpretations.
The more you go, the more you will be able to interpret it with your body. Isn't that a good idea? It was the same for me, but being excited about a new way of thinking is a strong first contact, but it's a waste to leave it there. If you continue to practice UL hiking, which you have come across, I think you will find a new relationship between you and UL hiking.
Harazawa: I think a lot of things will become clear from now on. Right now I'm really excited and having fun, and I want to put it into practice more and more. Even when I put it into practice and think, "Maybe it's not right?", I'm surrounded by Toyoshima-san, Manabe-san, and Hayashi-san, and I think it's a great luxury to have people to talk to about it, and it makes me happy. Very much.
TOYOSHIMA: If you put it into practice, I think it will lead to more and more worlds outside of UL hiking. Next, you might try trail running or fastpacking. There are many activities that apply UL hiking, so you might be drawn into that world. It might spark a chain reaction of excitement with new ideas.
Sugimoto: A switch.
Toyoshima: The first domino has already been pushed. (Laughs)
Harazawa: I'd love to talk to you again. Thank you very much for today!
A snap after the interview. Let's go to the mountains again!
HARASAWA Shogo