If you have respect and a desire to have fun,
Good output can be produced
~ Interview: Ken Imamura (Surface & Architecture Co., Ltd.) ~

I first met you in January of this year, right?

I agree.

When I met her...I was smitten.

Huh!?

No, just kidding. That's not true (laughs). At first, when I was introduced as a branding company, I felt a sharp aura. For example, I remember feeling that if I made a proposal that was even slightly off-topic due to a lack of awareness, he would mutter, "This is wrong from the perspective of branding, isn't it?" and cut me off.

(laughs) I see. After the project had progressed for a while, we went for tea at Excelsior.

That's right. Ito from our company contacted us, and the three of us joined together. We immediately found that we shared a lot of common ideas about design.

When I talked to Onogi-san, I got the sense that he was a very logical thinker, and I immediately thought, "Oh, this person seems like a good fit." Onogi-san is from a science background, and so am I. Designers from science backgrounds are a big plus for me.

I was able to talk to him quite easily from the very beginning. Even though it was our first meeting, I ended up asking him things like, "What do you want to do in the future?" (laughs).

Haha! That's right, that's right.

During meetings, Imamura-san often makes statements that take people by surprise. They are strangely persuasive. I call them "words from God" (laughs). When Imamura-san, who has been silent for a long time, opens his mouth and says, "I have a thought...", an amazing keyword usually comes out.

No, that's a bit troubling. It's important to have an atmosphere where people can freely express their opinions, but whenever I try to say something, everyone gets defensive, like, "Oh, here it comes!", so I feel like I can't say anything stupid and I end up shrinking back (laughs).

Moreover, that situation wasn't because I was amazing, but because the atmosphere of the meeting with the participating members was good. There were two roles in the project: someone who focused on the design and someone like me who took a step back. The meetings for this work were ideal because we were able to have constructive discussions together.

What I find amazing about working with S&A, where Imamura-san works, is that while I thought he would only be in charge of UX, he also plans the UI part and even decides on the tone and manner design. And after creating all of that as materials, he starts the meeting. It feels like he is presented with a huge bundle of information right from the beginning.

Ah, I think that's important. I want to see it consistently from beginning to end, down to the smallest details. For example, if you compare it to a movie director, I don't think a director would just look at the script and say, "Oh, that's good. Then I'll just do whatever I want." He would carefully watch the shooting, give the OK, and then be particular about the editing and even the finer details of the cuts. I think my job is the same.

I heard that you attended graduate school before joining the workforce. You are quite a studious person.

No, that's not the case though...

During my three years at university, I didn't really study and instead spent most of my time playing in a band.

Huh, a band? I was in one too.

...Really?!

Really. Actually, my dream was to become a musician (laughs). I loved 60's blues rock and Eric Clapton was like a god. I played the guitar for a long time.

Well, I also played the guitar. But my music genre was death metal. My hair was shoulder length.

Huh!? Seriously?! Death metal! Although the genres are completely different... After all, from the first time we met, I thought we had something in common.

Wow, what a coincidence (laughs). I'm also very interested in the band story, but let's get back to the topic! What did you major in at graduate school?

I majored in design strategy at the Faculty of Art and Engineering. I would take drawing classes in the morning, but programming classes in the afternoon. It was a hybrid faculty in a good way, and I learned a lot of different things, including CG classes, urban landscapes, architecture, graphics, digital media, web and video.

What exactly do you study in design strategy?

Rather than actually creating the design by myself, various people, such as those from engineering and humanities departments, and those who want to learn design at work, gather together and form a project team of four or five people. There, everyone divides up the roles and creates the design. I was in charge of design production while learning about branding, services, and products.

And so he became a working member of society.

Yes. When I joined the company as a new graduate, I designed software for IT system management and monitors for construction machinery such as excavators and wheel loaders. In other words, I worked hard on GUI work. Then, as the years went by, I started to do management and direction as well...

But after about four or five years at the company, I started to feel a strong desire to try doing all the work. From planning to design, production, and finally web coding. But in a big company, you can't do that because of the division of labor. So I decided to move to a more compact company.

So that's why you moved to S&A.

That's right. It was a company started by my senior at the time, who was also my senior from university. That company is now S&A. At the time, there were no employees, but the president invited me to join the company. However, what I do now is mostly direction (laughs). I realized that it was impossible to do everything by myself.

I'm going to get serious about this, but I've actually been thinking about what I should do in the future. To put it bluntly, I've even thought about whether I should step away from design for a while.

That's an interesting story. I'll also be thinking about what to do next.

It's fun to start creating a design. The moment you open a blank canvas, you feel excited. But when you start mass-producing the pages, you start to wonder if it's good enough.

That's true. When you mass-produce something, or when you design something, it becomes a pattern, and you end up with a little... For example, you put a navigation bar here, and the content area has a design like this.

Personally, I think that since Google and Apple made their design guidelines public, a lot of things have changed. It seems like a trend has started to take hold that UIUX is something like this.

I see. Also, with the spread of smartphones, I think they have matured to a certain extent. As a result of trying out various designs and UIUX, we have come to feel that "this kind of UI pattern is easy to use." People who use apps tend to use various apps in parallel. In that case, it is naturally better to have a sense of unity in the operation.

Yeah, yeah.

But when that happens, the creativity of a designer becomes less necessary. When you think like that, you start to feel like someone else could do it, right?

That's right. Horiemon said something like, "When things become digital, they basically become free." There are aspects of design that lose value when it becomes digital, so I can relate to this statement. Moreover, if AI becomes able to do more and more of our work, I wonder what our value is. What is expected of professional designers?

Yes, that's right... To give a very dry and extreme answer, it's about how much economic value the activity you are doing can create. How much did what you designed contribute to the sales of the service? I think you can get to that point and think about it. But if that's all there is to it, it's lonely.

I've been doing this job for 10 years now, and I've done more output than input. But I think that from now on, more and more of my output will be free... I wonder if it would be better for me to focus on input and work in a position where I can provide direction from a human perspective.

For example, to jump ahead a little, DJs are people who mix and sample songs to make something work. I think that in the future, there will be value in collecting many 1s and creating a new 1.

I see.

What is the core of your work?

It's UX, after all. With this field at the core, how should we plan the service, the final graphics, and come up with ideas? I feel like I'm exploring how much I can expand on what. The job of a UX director is to create the experience for users. I also think about the media that is most suitable for that experience: the web, video, or even paper.

UX can be expanded to many different things.

Exactly. That's where we differ from designers who have a clear target. This may seem abrupt, but there's a word called "experience points." "Experience points" are what you absorb from your experiences, abstract them within yourself, and use them to enrich your life. I think the job of a UX director is to create a system that uses various means to increase this "experience point."

The experience itself is something that exists within oneself, so one cannot design it. That's why my job is called UX Director, not UX Designer.
What makes my job rewarding is "enjoying the time I spend working with people I care about."

I sometimes play video games, and there are mechanisms that allow you to intuitively know "I am in this place now" just by moving the cursor. I think that kind of thing is nice because it feels like a human being is choosing it based on their sensibility. That being said, I don't want to design games for the web or apps. I think there may be something more I can do.

That's right. Games are special. They are based on a certain worldview that you can immerse yourself in, and the idea is how to create individuality within that world. From there, it's interesting to think about what kind of control system to use and how to refine the uniqueness of the design. However, if you apply that to web or app services and make them too unique, it's hard for users to get into them.

That's right (laughs).

However, I think there will come a phase where we will create a completely different, new design. What will be important at that time is how to create individuality like in a game. It's a completely different way of thinking from human-centered design. Without fear of being misunderstood, human-centered design is about observing users closely and exploring their thought patterns, thinking, "I wonder if this kind of thing would be good for this person," before moving forward.

For example, it's like being in front of the woman you love and saying, "I'll become the man you love!" However, the polar opposite is the type that says, "I have this kind of personality, and these are my values. You like me, don't you?" Games that are built with a strong personality belong to the latter, aggressive type. Moreover, games that capture the hearts of users on top of that have overwhelming individuality and charm.

Yes, that's right.

So, in my opinion, the only way to create something new is through communication skills. That's what I consider most important right now.

Oh.

The only way to survive in the age of AI is for people to talk to each other and create something new. Because the level of aggressiveness you should show is also something that is decided through repeated discussions between people. In the future, I would like to be able to talk properly with various experts.

For example, I want to be able to talk with AI experts, management, and of course designers and creators, and do design and direction as someone who understands business. Actually, even more than what I want to accomplish, I want to value the "people" I work with. What makes me feel rewarded is being able to enjoy the time I spend working with the people I care about.

That way of thinking is really great.

That's because, when you work as a director, most of your time is taken up by meetings. You spend a lot of time talking with clients and business partners. If that isn't fun, then life isn't fun anymore. Going through a lot of hardship there to get results isn't what I want to do right now.

You're right.

For example, if the ordering party were to tell us what to do, assuming they would pay us, that might be the right way to go in economic activities, but it's a bit sad. Instead, it's important to have mutual respect.

Wow, that's great. I respect Mr. Imamura for thinking that way (laughs).

Hahaha. No, in my 20s, even if it was hard, I felt a certain sense of satisfaction as long as the output was good. But now that I'm in my mid-30s, my perspective has changed. I think that if you don't enjoy the work itself, you can't produce good output.

That's right. I hope we can communicate closely with people of the same generation and have fun. Let's get together again!