The two are connected by the yardstick of "correct design," wanting to convey the way things should be.
Interview with AXIS Mutsumi Matsuno

The guest for this issue of "The Circulating Ruler" is Mutsumi Matsuno, an art director at Axis Co., Ltd. Izumi Kojima, head of the Coding Factory Division, has worked with Axis on a number of projects and describes her impression of the company as "like a teammate."

The first time I worked with Matsuno-san was on a full renewal project for a certain tire manufacturer from July to December 2014.
My first impression when I met him was, "His fur is red."
Speaking of AXIS, the impression I got from that magazine was really strong, and I had imagined that the people I would be working with would be just like them, so when I met them for the first time, as someone from the Kishidan area, I definitely felt an indescribable sense of affinity (laughs).

Soon after we started working on this project, the AXIS staff and our director worked closely together for several days checking every page of the current site. Because of this, we didn't feel like we were separate companies, and we worked together with the pure awareness that we were "team members working on the same project."

While working with you, I got the impression that there was something consistent throughout your work. I didn't know what that was specifically, but I got the feeling that behind the designs you create there must be reliable, well-thought-out, and solid policies, as well as a sense of balance between design and life.

Today, I would like to interview you about some of the things that you've been quietly wondering about every day, but that you'd only hear about if you asked about it again.

Coding Factory Department Manager, Izumi Kojima

The experience of seeing a magazine I was involved in actually appear on the shelves of a bookstore and seeing people buying it right in front of me

Matsuno-san (hereinafter: Matsuno)
My career began as a magazine designer. I started working part-time at our company when I was a university student, but before that I had worked part-time at one design firm.

It was a time when magazine design was changing to DTP, and some articles at the design office were still designed with pencil on layout paper. The main magazine was a monthly car magazine, and I was able to experience the design scene that handled phototypesetting.

Moreover, they included my name as one of the designers in the magazine's credits. I felt bad for being a novice part-timer who had just entered art school, but the people around me said, "You design properly and are getting paid, so your name should be listed here." I think they were probably trying to help me grow. Looking back, it was a really big experience for me to have a magazine I was involved in actually line the shelves of bookstores, and to have people pick it up and buy it right in front of me, even before I turned 20.

So when people ask me where my career began, I always answer that my first job was at a monthly automotive magazine.

Kojima
Although it was a magazine, it wasn't your company's "AXIS".

Matsuno
That's right. By the way, at that time our company was already using PageMaker for DTP.

If I were to talk about my career, I would say that I started out working on magazines, then started working on the early days of the Web, and have continued to do so to this day. My position within the company has changed little by little, and the number of pages I am in charge of has decreased, but I am still involved in "AXIS" as a designer for every issue.

"AXIS" is a design information magazine published by Axis since 1981.
It is published bimonthly, six issues a year (released on the 1st of every odd-numbered month).

Division of labor naturally progresses toward maturity

Kojima
When did you start working on the web?

Matsuno
I think the reason my boss at the time invited me to work part-time at the company was because the company was going to be involved in web design. He never said it directly to me, but I think they wanted a young person who could handle digital media, because the word "Internet" hadn't even been used yet.

The first web project I was involved in was the screen design for the first MSN Japan version provided by Microsoft, which allowed users to launch a unique browser on their computers and enjoy certain content.

Kojima
Around 2000?

Matsuno
I think that was around 1996, right in the early days.

Kojima
It's a very creative period.

Matsuno
Yes. There were very few companies in Japan that had their own websites, so I was in charge of designing the first corporate website for a major telecommunications company. It was a time when table coding was rare, so there was really only a limited amount of things we could do.

Kojima
Amazing! There was someone there before me (laughs).

Matsuno
Hahahaha (laughs). Aren't they about the same?

Kojima
When I joined the company, Dreamweaver* was already on-site.
* Coding software developed by Adobe. It was originally developed by Macromedia, but Adobe acquired the company in 2005. Since then, it has been an Adobe product.

Matsuno
That certainly wasn't the case (laughs).

Kojima
When I started working in the web industry, it was just when creating a website was becoming a status symbol, and many companies were starting to have their own websites. Therefore, the production tools were already available.

Matsuno
I see. Then I'm faster than you. In the case of the Tama River, it's the first drop upstream.

Kojima
It feels like it's welling up.

Matsuno
It feels like it's welling up (laughs).

Kojima
When did you start coding?

Matsuno
Right from the beginning. HTML was simple in those days, so I thought I could put it together myself, and so I taught myself. Then table coding became the norm, and the world started talking about "Web 2.0," and then the division of labor gradually started.

Kojima
It's true that in the past, a web designer was someone who handled both coding and design from start to finish, but gradually these roles have become separated.

Matsuno
There were no people with roles such as web planners or coders, and most projects were handled by one or two people. But it's only in the last five years or so that the division of labor has suddenly become widespread.

But this is true for any media, whether it's magazines or videos, in the early stages it starts out as a job done by a few people, and as it matures, the technology and expertise of each phase deepens and the division of labor progresses. I think the Web is naturally part of that same flow. That's what I'm saying (laughs).

Kojima
It looks like it (laughs).

What is "the right design"?
The necessary technology is used where it is needed,
The state in which it functions effectively

Kojima
At what point did you start to focus on design?

Matsuno
I still do a little bit of coding, but I started to think about division of labor when Flash's Actionscript became more complicated. This may be a bit controversial, but for me it was a definite turning point. Around that time, I think the world was divided into those who were mastering Flash and those who had some doubts about how Flash was being used.

I was closer to the side of those who questioned the idea that Flash was all-powerful. There were people in the company who were really into Flash, so I was often in charge of sites that didn't use Flash. Then, first, people started moving away from Flash's Actionscript, and as the coding became more complicated, I thought, "I understand what's written, but it may not be a technology that graphic designers can handle," and "Efficiency may increase, so it may become a matter of the experts."

Kojima
In that sense, I was doing both, but I moved towards coding around the same time.

Matsuno
As the number of things to do increases and things become more complicated, if you don't focus on one thing, you simply won't be able to keep up.

Kojima
oh yeah.

Matsuno
There is the time issue, but the thought processes required for each are also different...

Kojima
It's completely different. If you design while thinking about coding, constraints emerge.

Matsuno
That's right. When designing, you have to ensure the feasibility of coding, but if you worry about that too much, your ideas won't spread.

Kojima
I see. By the way, what is your design policy?

Matsuno
I believe that for many things there is a certain "correct form" that has been cultivated over a long history.

Kojima
The correct appearance?

Matsuno
For example, do all websites need Flash? I have no intention of rejecting Flash, but this is a question I had at the time. For example, do the corporate websites of large, serious companies need to be Flash sites?

Kojima
Aaaah.

Matsuno
The right technology is used where it is needed, and it functions effectively. That is how it should be, and I think it is one form of "correct design." In reality, the major premise is whether it properly solves the problems that clients and users have, and I think it also depends on who decides what is correct...

Kojima
I understand that very well.

Interview with Kojima, Director of the Coding Factory Department

Matsuno
Some people may say that depending on the product, it's a "normal design," but normal means that it's easy for everyone to use, so I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Unexpectedness and originality are eye-catching, but that's not all that's good. I don't think it's good to take the role of a designer and carelessly twist something into something that's not the original purpose. For me, my fundamental desire is to aim for something "correct" or "properly evolved" rather than something funny or silly.

In December 2006, Matsuno designed Morisawa's corporate website. This led AXIS to receive numerous awards, including the 5th Tokyo Interactive Ad Award Bronze Award, the 2007 Good Design Award (Communication Design category), the 2007 ACC04 Award Grand Prize and the Prime Minister's Award. (For more information, click here .)

The many channels in our daily lives support our work style that pursues everything

Kojima
Working with you, Mr. Matsuno is really busy. Moreover, I got the impression that you have a work style that doesn't consider a landing point of "this is good enough" but pursues things to the very end.

Matsuno
That's the same for you, Kojima-san, isn't it?

Kojima
Maybe it's a mutual thing (laughs). But Mr. Matsuno has children, and is often at the office at night, and in the morning he takes over from his wife to look after the children, then goes back to work. I think this way of working and living is simply amazing.

Matsuno
It's hard to summarise, but people can only behave the way they were raised. I think Kojima-san is the same, but the baby boomers are a generation that entered society during the recession, and they grew up in an atmosphere where you couldn't get ahead unless you worked harder than others. Even if you worked hard and entered an art school with a high competition rate, not everyone in the design department could become a designer. My wife is my high school classmate, so she has been watching the process, and she understands that I'm not playing around even if I come home late at night. However, since we both work, it's not acceptable for me to not participate at all in raising our children (laughs). So I take advantage of the industry atmosphere where I get home late but can relax a little in the morning (laughs).

Kojima
How do you unwind?

Matsuno
I watch it a little at a time on weekdays after I get home. I also switch channels when I spend time with my children. For example, I've been a Boy Scout since I was in elementary school, and I'm still doing it.

Kojima
That's amazing! It's like the Boy Scouts motto: "Always be prepared."

Matsuno
Now I work as a leader and administrator, and until recently I was the captain of the youngest class. It's a good way to change my mood. It's one of the channels I can switch to.

Kojima
Perhaps it is because such a place exists that balance is maintained.

The two teammates respect each other and understand why Spoon took its current form.

Matsuno
One of our staff members once told me, "Mr. Kojima and Mr. Matsuno have the same vibe." We are in different positions, but I think we are people who have lived in similar times and in similar environments. There are many stories I could tell you about the difficulties we faced while working together, but more than that, I felt that we were able to be together without any frustration because we have similar backgrounds.

Kojima
The "being right" that you mentioned earlier is something that I also value in my work, and I always want to convey things exactly as they should be, neither too little nor too much.

Matsuno
That's right. That's why I think we get along well even when talking about work.

Kojima
The criteria for decision-making when discussing "What should we do about this?" are similar.

Matsuno
For example, the spoon has been shaped like that for a long time, and people who use it are satisfied with it. I don't think there is any need to twist it and seek surprise or originality that would end up making it difficult to use. It is important to think about evolution, though.

Kojima: That's true.

Matsuno
I sometimes talk about this spoon with my clients, but I feel like Kojima-san understands it without me having to say it. I see Monosus through Kojima-san, and I think we are probably similar in that way.

Kojima
Can I just ask one last question? I've been wondering for a while, but why is your hair red?

Matsuno
Your hair is red! I knew I would be asked that someday (laughs). I was born and raised in my hometown, and I still live there. So the hair salon I go to and the hairdresser who cuts my hair haven't changed since I was in middle school and high school, and when I graduated from high school, they said "Congratulations!" and gave me a blonde mesh. It turned red when I was 20. They dyed it red as a "congratulations on becoming an adult" (laughs). It's been red ever since. So, despite that, I also feel like my red hair makes up for my weaknesses. I'm a rather modest person, so I'm not the type to assert myself aggressively, but having red hair makes me stand out even when I'm quiet. Now it's become so much of my identity that if I dyed my hair black, people might worry about me. I'm going to keep it red as long as I can (laughs).

Kojima
So, if the color changes, it means that some major turning point has arrived.

Matsuno
That's right. You can think of it that way (laughs).

Profile of Mutsumi Matsuno Art director. Born in Tokyo in 1975. Graduated from Tama Art University. Joined Axis Co., Ltd. in 1998. Focusing on website design and coding, he also does editorial design for AXIS magazine and graphic design.

(Interviewer: Kensaku Saguchi)