I want to make a living by supporting people's desire to create things. What can I do to achieve that?
~ Interview: Masatoshi Watanabe (Self-Build Partner) / Interviewer: Haruka Baba

In this project, Haruka Baba, a Monosus employee who hopes to do similar work in the horticulture field, talks with Masatoshi Watanabe of Engawa Shoten , a self-build partner in Saku City, Nagano Prefecture.

In the first part , the two talked about why they decided to make a living by supporting people who want to make things themselves. In the second part, Baba will finally ask Watanabe some questions.

Maybe people don't want answers, they just want someone to worry with them.

Baba : Earlier, you said that you wished more people would build their own homes. Did the people who actually built their own homes enjoy it?

Watanabe : Yes. However, I think you have to grit your teeth and work on it. It's not that easy, and things often don't go well. Sometimes it develops into a fight between husband and wife over "When will it be over?" or "It would have been quicker and cheaper to ask someone else to do this." There may be more difficult times along the way.

But if you do it to the end, it's different. At the end, they smile, or rather, they say, "Oh, that was tough," with a wry smile. I like that feeling. At that point, they finally feel fulfilled and think, "Even I can do it," and "It was hard, but I'm glad I did it."

The interview took place in the forests of Nagano.

Have you ever had a performance where your partner gave up midway and the fun just wasn't conveyed?

WatanabeUntil now, the contract aspect was large, so when things dragged on, we would push harder and force the end. So, we have to be careful from now on. It will be a form of "everyone supporting the salon members' projects," so it's up to each person to decide whether to continue or quit. I don't want them to give up halfway through, but I'm not forcing them to do it...

But I think it's great to be able to see other people working hard at the salon and encourage each other, because building your own home can be a lonely struggle.

Baba : I personally enjoy working with soil so much that I think everyone should try it, but at the same time I wonder if everyone is actually enjoying it, so I often find myself hesitant to encourage others to do it.

Watanabe : Of course, I don't think everyone can enjoy it. So when I first get a consultation, I make sure to check whether or not they really want to do it. If you don't want to do it, you shouldn't do it. But if you think, "I want to do it, but I wonder if I can do it," then you should do it, and I think there are people like that.

I can imagine what it would be like to build something for the first time, but I don't know how to make a garden. I have a vague idea that I would like it to be a little nicer, but I don't know the names of the plants, the tools, or where to start. That's why I would be very grateful if there was someone who could give me advice.

Baba: I don't understand what you mean by "I don't understand." Are you saying you want advice like, "It would be good to create a sense of unity in the garden by creating several islands of shrubs and undergrowth around tall trees"?

Watanabe : Well, I don't know what to do in the first place. I might want to have a conversation. I can get some information from books and videos, but I can't imagine what to do with my garden. But when I consult with a landscape gardener, it's just like, "Do it like this here, and here's the estimate." That's not it.

Baba: While I had been helping out in the gardens of friends of mine, I had been wondering how I could support them. But when I heard the words "I want to have a conversation," I realized, "Ah, it's true that talking is very important."

Work proceeds while keeping an eye on the plants and the overall state of the garden.

Watanabe : I started this job without any experience working on-site as a craftsman, so I told the people who first asked me to work with them, "I really have no experience and I don't know anything." I replied, "So let's think about it together." When I told them that, they were actually happy.

Of course, there are people who want professional advice, but I think there are many people who want someone to trouble them together, or to first listen to them say, "I'm troubled by this..." That's what I'm feeling myself.

To cater to the customer's desire to do something

When I'm gardening at Bababayashi 's house, sometimes I suggest a task, but often Hayashi says, "I want to do this today," and we work together. There are tasks that we should work on first, or that we have to do at this time of year, but I think it's more fun to work on the thing that he's most interested in at the moment, and it's best to proceed flexibly.

Watanabe : That's right. I'm also used to the construction company's way of doing things, so I tend to say, "Let's draw up a blueprint first," but some people say, "It's fine, I just want to start making it." It's important to get your hands moving when you're at your most passionate, so I think that's fine. On the other hand, I try to properly convey the importance of blueprints. I explain the basic theory and the advantages and disadvantages of what I'm trying to do, and then let them make a choice.

-- When you take the stance of "being supportive of what the other person wants to do," it seems like it can be difficult when what they want is very vague or changes all the time. What do you do in situations like that?

Baba : I don't have much experience yet, so I can't really say for sure, but plants are living things just like people, aren't they? So, when I look at them, I can't help but be interested. If I don't have an image of what kind of garden I want, I might just say, "Let's just take care of it."

Listening to the story with him is his partner, the marionette Porta.

When you actually touch the plants and cut the branches, your perspective changes completely. You might think, "It's beautiful from a distance, but when you look at it up close, it's crowded and the light isn't reaching it," or, "The ground must be hard."

If the plants are weak, it will bother you and you won't be able to plan the whole garden, but by working on them in this way, the resolution will increase and you will gradually be able to see, "It would be nice to have this plant here." So, I think we start by working on what is in front of us.

Watanabe : I really agree with Baba-chan's words that "plants and people are alive." It really does change when you start working on it. You start to see a lot of different things, so there are quite a few times when people say they want to make it a completely different shape along the way. But I think that's the benefit of doing it yourself. Architecture has many elements, so it's difficult to decide from the beginning. But if you ask a professional, it's hard to change direction along the way. But with self-build, you can change it at your own risk.

— So you can flexibly change it by using your hands.

I heard from counselor Watanabe that when you ask "What do you really want to do?", the other person feels pressured and closes off. I reflected on the fact that I had said quite a lot.

So recently, I've been waiting for the other person to say something, and casually stating my opinion, "I like this" or "If it were me, I would do it this way." Just as my own opinion. Then, the other person will say, "No, maybe I don't like that," and their likes and dislikes will come out.

Also, there are times when I have an idea in my head, but I can't express it. In those cases, I draw pictures on my iPad or show them photos and ask, "Is this what you mean?" I think it's an important part of my job to translate the image into concrete words and pictures and communicate them to the people involved.

Baba: Is there anything you do to keep your customers motivated?

Watanabe: We ask our members to start projects on their own, but sometimes things don't go smoothly, so we have prepared an optional plan where we meet once a week on Zoom for an hour. We draw up plans and make estimates on the spot, and we move the work forward even a little. It's good to just let them vent their worries. That alone makes a big difference.

If a month goes by without doing anything, the feeling inevitably fades and people start to think, "Maybe I can't do this after all," or "It's okay now." That's why it's so important to communicate continuously and make progress, even if it's just a little at a time, and I think just providing that time will make it work.

How can I turn supporting people to "make things themselves" into a job?

— Watanabe-san has set up an online salon, but what kind of system do you have in mind for delivering your services?

Baba: That's what I'm most worried about... I feel like I'm trying to figure out things like, "Can I even make money from this?" and, "How can I make what I find fun and what I can do overlap with what my customers want?"

Watanabe: If I were to talk about a mistake I made when I first started Engawa Shoten, it would be that I was not confident and set the prices too low. Because of that, when customers asked for various things, I felt like "I'm doing it so cheaply, but they're asking for more." When I reconsidered the price setting, I felt the exact opposite: "I want to do more for them because I'm getting this much."

Also, when I was trying to do everything by myself, I felt pressured when I received a complicated request, thinking, "Can I do it?" But when I realized that I could just leave the things I can't do to a trusted craftsman, I felt a lot more at ease, and I started to enjoy the content of the requests.

So it might be a good idea to get a craftsman who shares Baba-chan's way of thinking on your side. It would greatly expand the range of what you can do. There are probably some craftsmen who are not good at communicating with customers. If Baba-chan could step in and tell them what the customer wants to do, or explain the meaning of the work the craftsman is currently doing, I think that alone would be very valuable. Of course, that's only if Baba-chan wants to do that.

Baba: I would love to work with a craftsman who is a good fit for me . As I was listening to your story, I remembered many of the faces of the craftsmen I have met in the past.

Watanabe: I'm also looking to find more craftsmen to work with. At large construction companies, once a project is completed, you're often sent on to the next site, but I often hear people say, "I want to be more involved in one project."

Also, in the world of construction, a craftsman's salary is set at a certain amount per day, which means that finishing on time is the top priority, but some craftsmen actually want to incorporate more fun and try new and interesting things.

I would like to work with a variety of people, including those slightly unusual craftsmen, and people who have some experience even though it is not their main job, and who are involved in the project while working in multiple professions.

The craftsman that Watanabe works with

What we want to offer is an experience that gives you confidence and recognition by "making things yourself."

- Do you think Watanabe and Baba might collaborate in some way?

Baba : If there is anyone at the salon who is having trouble with their garden, and I'm okay with helping them...

Watanabe : It's okay! Engawa Lab is a place where people who are serious about making things themselves gather. Online salons are sometimes criticized for their high membership fees, but we set the price at 5,000 yen per month because we want people who are serious to join.

Thanks to that, people who really want to build things have gathered, so I think they will be happy if the target is expanded from architecture to gardens. When someone says, "I've finished my goal of building a wooden deck, but what should I do next?" Baba-chan comes on and says, "Well, why don't you work on the garden in front of the wooden deck?" I think that's a great idea.

Baba : I would like to be able to do things within the group, like dividing plants that have multiplied or exchanging seeds.

Watanabe: That's great. Recently, members have been sharing leftover materials little by little, and exchanging ideas like, "If you help us out for a day, I'll give you this tool that you're done using," and it would be fun if we could do that with plants too.

— It seems like you'd be able to collaborate in a good way. Baba-san, were you able to ask the things you wanted to ask?

Baba : Yes! However, since this is the "Meguru Measuring Rulers" corner, I'd like to ask you one last question about the rulers that are important to you, Watanabe-san.

Watanabe : That's right... I call myself a self-build partner, but when asked if I want to do architecture, I think that's a little different. I said at the beginning that the essence of self-build is self-satisfaction, but there was something that saved me by building a shed myself.

The reason I left the construction industry once was because I thought, "I've had enough." I'm not good at working in a company or dealing with relationships between superiors and subordinates, and I'm the kind of person who cares a lot about what other people think, so I listened to what they said too much. But by creating something on my own, I gradually regained my confidence and started to think, "I can do it too," and I began to accept myself.

That's why I want to provide those feelings and experiences first and foremost. I think that being able to "make things yourself" is very important for people to live happily, so I want to provide that. I don't know if I can call it a measuring stick, but it's something that I value.

I like architecture, so I do it as my main subject, but I don't think it necessarily has to be architecture. So I'm happy to have people like Baba-chan who have different specialties join us. We support "making things yourself" in various fields, and members who were once on the receiving end can now teach. I hope Engawa Lab will become that kind of place.

- Thank you. Baba-san wants to support "making things yourself" from now on, so I think that by asking honest questions, I was able to hear more about Watanabe-san's ingenuity and what he values. If the collaboration between the two of you takes shape, I would love to interview you again!

(End of conversation)

After the conversation: From Baba to Watanabe

Through this interview, I have gained many realizations and have been able to face myself once again.
The words that left the biggest impression on me were, "I wish everyone would do this."

While thinking "I wish everyone did this," I also think it's a good idea to continue making things yourself because it's fun.
However, I got the impression that Watanabe-san was thinking about how to make it happen and then putting it into practice.
It's not like he's pulling everyone along by saying, "Let's do it everyone!", but rather he's encouraging those who are hesitant to take the first step by saying, "I've got your back, so let's give it a try."
I thought it was like the distance a father would have when helping a child learn to ride a bike. He supported his child from behind a little, and then let go when the time was right.
When I thought about it that way, it made perfect sense and I thought, "That's what I want to do!"

The person providing support doesn't need to have the right answers; they just need to bring out what's inside the person who wants to do it.
One of them was having conversations, and I thought, "Oh, I see. So having conversations is important."

As you can see, I find myself thinking about the contents of the conversation and not being able to stop.
There were so many hints, and it was a time when I really felt the importance of conversation.

It was very comfortable, with an atmosphere that made it easy to get the conversation flowing and an ability to keep things connected even when the topic strayed. I realized that this kind of atmosphere is more important in a conversation than being a good speaker.
I think Watanabe has that kind of power.

I am truly grateful to have had the opportunity to meet someone who lives the way Watanabe does, and to have had the opportunity to speak to him at length in the form of a conversation.
I look forward to collaborating with you someday and would appreciate your continued support.

Baba