Changing the way we work won't change anything. From "How do we work?" to "How do we manage?"
Interview with Yoshiaki Nishimura - Part 1 -

The person interviewed for this episode of "Meandering Ruler" is Nishimura Yoshitetsu.
Nishimura-san is uniquely active in three areas: creating, writing, and teaching. Many people may know him as a "work style researcher."

I met Nishimura-san through a strange coincidence, and now we are involved in a variety of different things.
Sometimes in Tokyo. Sometimes in Tohoku. Sometimes in Kamiyama.

Over two days, we will be delivering a two- part interview with Manabe, head of the production department, about Nishimura's past, his recent work, his connection with Monosus, and more.

In the first part, we spoke to Nishimura about his thoughts on working and running a business.
(May 17, 2016 at Monosas Satellite Office, Kamiyama-cho, Tokushima Prefecture)

You haven't been saying "work style researcher" lately, have you?

Manabe: I'm a little nervous about this interview (laughs).

Nishimura-san (hereinafter: Nishimura)
Yes, let's just go ahead and do it (laughs).

Manabe: I was thinking about what to ask, when suddenly he asked me this question.
You haven't been calling yourself a "work style researcher" much lately, have you (laughs)?

Nishimura : I don't say it that much (laughs).

Manabe: Is there a reason for that?

Nishimura : Hmm, the most plausible reason would be that I began to feel that changing the way I worked wouldn't really help me.
Well, I was interested in the way people worked in the past.
Especially during the 10 years from my mid-20s to mid-30s.

At that time, I didn't know anything about something as simple as how to hold a good meeting or how to build a team, and I thought there must be a better way, so I wanted to go around and ask everyone about it.
That's why I was doing things like serializing in AXIS.

"Create your own job" (Chikuma Bunko, first published in 2009) is a paperback edition of the book originally published by Shobunsha in 2003. It also includes the serial "Let's work" (1995-1997) in "AXIS," which interviewed various people about their working styles.

I asked them everything from how to proceed with the design to how to hold meetings, how to share information, and how to layout the office.

For example, I learned a lot about why something like an island-type opposing layout is good.
Simply put, it's suitable for companies that hire new people every year.
A new employee drops in to fill an empty seat, and everyone can see the new employee, and the new employee can see everyone else.
Also, the manager was standing a little distance away, so everyone could see him getting scolded.
It's a conducive environment for education.

Island layout

However, that layout is not suitable when a company reaches maturity or when it is looking to scrap and build.
Most Japanese companies have eight-seater tables in these types of places, but places like Uniqlo have four-seater tables.
Do you know why that is?

Manabe : Ah, it's shaped like a corner.

Nishimura: Yes. Since everyone is in a corner, you can have a small mini-meeting anywhere.
So, I absorbed all of that stuff, gobbled it up, one by one (laughs).

Manabe (laughs).

Changing the way you work won't change anything

Nishimura : That was a great learning experience for me.
But, I was very interested in that, and I'm still interested in good ways of working, smart ways of doing things, effective ways of doing things, but I feel like it's not very meaningful if the things we create through that are stupid.

No matter how much working styles are reformed, how easy it is to balance work and child-rearing, or how creative meetings are held, I don't think there is any hope for salvation if we find ourselves thinking, "If we carry on like this, the gap between rich and poor will only widen," or, "The more we do this, the more pointless the world will become," or, "Do I really need this job right now?"

ManabeIf there is no meaning behind it, then even if you change the way you work, nothing will change.

Nishimura : Yes. So, I wonder.
It's the same as talking about design and facilitation.
Even though design and facilitation are skills, they are simply power.
It can be used to, for example, steer people in the direction of "war is the only option," or it can be used to get people to discuss and engage with issues that are difficult to deal with.

In short, there is no good or bad in design or facilitation itself.
It's the same as there being no good or bad in knives themselves (laughs).
So what are we going to do with it? What kind of society are we going to create with it?
I've always thought that's the point.
So what we need now is to create jobs that say, "This is what's coming next."

Manabe :I see.

Nishimura : I think that at that time, the way we work will naturally change as well.
So, I feel like there's no point in being so concerned with work style.

Rather than "working," it's "running"

Nishimura : One more thing.
It's true that work takes up a huge part of our lives, but I don't think that who I am is just someone who works. I also live my life.

How he eats, how he interacts with his children, how he spends time with his wife, etc.
I am who I am because of all the things that have happened.
I don't like the term "work-life balance."

Manabe (laughs).

Nishimura: In many ways, if the work is too demanding, self-alienation progresses and integration becomes impaired. If you try to integrate in that situation, you end up splitting yourself up instead.
So I see it as a message to people to enrich their private lives outside of work and maintain balance.

But in reality, I think a happy state is when work and life are integrated, and when you're self-employed like me, you can't say things like, "I'm doing this because it's my job" or "I need to relax a bit here" (laughs).

Manabe: I can't keep saying that (laughs).

Nishimura : There's no balance between work and life.
So, there's an architectural team called Zo Design Group.

Manabe from Hokkaido?

This is Nishimura Hokkaido.
A long time ago (winter 1995), I interviewed these people for a series in AXIS.
So when I made an appointment to ask, "Can I go?", they said, "We don't want you to come" (laughs). Like, "We don't want to answer those kinds of questions."
But I would say, "Well, it can't be helped once they've come" (laughs).
Eh, is it okay to go? Which one?! That's like it (laughs).

Manabe : You did a great job (laughs).

Nishimura and I responded in a very subtle way, with very subtle nuances.
When I went there, he told me all about it.

At the beginning,
I said, "Today I came to hear about how the elephants work."
He replied, "It's a way of working..." and said, "It's not a way of working, it's more like a way of running a business."

At that moment, I felt like I had heard something very important.
But I pretended not to hear and continued, "So, about the way you work" (laughs).

Manabe : So you continued (laughs).

Nishimura: I just listened to him talk about his working style (laughs).
But the phrase "feeling like I'm running a business" has always stuck with me.
Later on, I realized that the word "enjoy" is a good word that includes both work and life. It's integrated.
Right now I'm more interested in that kind of thing.

How do you run it?

Nishimura: When you think about how you work, it naturally becomes a question of how you live your life.
At that point, it's no longer possible to separate work and life.
I want to live a better life, but I don't know how to go about it.

Things like the economy and the future of the country.
I think that everyone is starting to get confused right now.
So, I think the words that best express it all are, "How should I go about my life from now on?"

But if I say "sex researcher" it doesn't make much sense (laughs).
They don't use the word "way of doing things" that actively either, and it feels like they've just let go of the word "way of working."

Manabe : The '80s was an era of how to play, then came an era of how to work, and now we're moving towards an era of how to live, and that basically means they're all integrating. That made a lot of sense to me when I heard that from Nishimura. I thought that was really interesting.

In the middle of the conversation, a neighbor suddenly joined in and the conversation began about gateball.

How to create a life stage

Manabe: I let go of the word "work style" and started to take a strong interest in "how to live." Does that have something to do with why you came to Kamiyama?

Nishimura : No, that's not a reason.
But what I'm interested in right now is what I can do.
Are they all running at the same time in the current environment?

A lot of different reasons came together for Kamiyama, but I never really had any intention of doing anything in particular.
Well, what we've been doing has always been portable.
That's true for writing, and I also had a lot of work that required me to travel, so it didn't matter where I went from.
So at first it was like, "Okay, what should I do here?"

However, at one point, I started receiving requests for advice from the town.
So, I thought it was similar to when I quit my job.
Anyway, I decided that I couldn't stay there any longer and just got out of that environment.
Then, after that, people will talk to you, they'll call out to you, and if you work hard at it, the next stage of your life will appear.

Manabe: That's a good story (laughs).

Nishimura : But I think there are some people who design and create their own lives. Like Ichiro, for example?
Build it up with intention.

It's not like that for me at all. I run away for a while, and then I end up doing it.
Moreover, rather than approaching people yourself, other people come to you.

Manabe said that Kamiyama was also part of that movement.

Nishimura : But at that moment, I was able to use the topics and cards that I had been wondering, "When and how will I use this?"
It's like all the things I read at one time, or things that I'd had stored deep in my heart for a long time and that had never been related to my work, are now all being made use of.
That's the situation right now.

Manabe :I see.
So is it in pretty good condition now?

I don't know if Nishimura is good or not, but I think he'll be working at full capacity.

Continued in the second part (released June 24th)