A place where you can learn "freedom" from Nature School TOEC. - Part 2 -
Speakers: Tatsuro Ise, Takahiro Hayashi / Interviewer: Yoshiaki Nishimura

This is the second part of the series "The Meandering Ruler," in which Ise Tatsuro, representative of the NPO Nature School TOEC (TOEC) ^*1 , and Monosus representative Hayashi were interviewed by Nishimura Yoshiaki, who connected the two.

In the first part , we talked to them about how they met, Ise's views on education based on his 30 years of experience at TOEC, and Hayashi's approach to website production, which has developed into his current style after working in his own company's marketing.
In the second part, we will talk about how three executives, including Hayashi, attended TOEC's free school seminar, and almost all of Monosus went camping at TOEC, and how the two organizations have grown closer, as well as each of their thoughts on freedom.
(Interviewer: Yoshiko Nakaniwa)

*1 A free school in Anan City, Tokushima Prefecture. It is a free school where children learn through interactions with people and nature, and also offers camping and outdoor activities, as well as child-rearing support, counseling, and seminars.

Three executives go to TOEC to learn how they can get involved.

Mr. Nishimura (hereafter referred to as "honorific titles omitted" )
The website ^*2 was launched in December, but Monosus' annual founding anniversary party, which is held every November, was held in Kamiyama and Toek.

Mr. Ise, could you tell us what kind of consultation Monosus came to you for and what happened?

*2 Monosus was in charge of the renewal of Toek's website . It was released in December of last year (2017). (For more details, see Part 1. )

Mr. Ise (hereafter referred to as "Ise-san")
Yes. Before that, there was a "Free School Seminar" held once a year in early October, with the combined efforts of the kindergarten and elementary school staff, and Hayashi and her team participated.

It's a workshop that carefully conveys the contents of alternative schools and forest kindergartens, not just letting them do things in nature, but the expertise of the staff and how we view people. It lasts for four days, and on the first day we share our views on education and humanity as free schools, and tell them what is actually being done and how we are proceeding.

Tatsuro Ise (CEO of Nature School TOEC)

Nishimura
Could you tell us about your views on education and humanity?

Ise
Well, it overlaps with what we were talking about earlier about efficiency, but I think education is about keeping in mind the image of a good person, a good child, and using all sorts of methods to help people reach their goals, whether that be praising or scolding them. For example, when a sports coach tells a player that he's great and makes him win the championship, I think that's the effect of education and the pinnacle of leadership. I think we're here to turn that around 180 degrees.

In the first place, the goal is not an object or a subject to be taught, but a "subject." This is where life comes from, and what the person has will emerge. We are the ones who help create an environment where they can grow even more. We also have channels, like watering them when the soil is dry, protecting them when they're in trouble, but trusting them and waiting.

However, forest kindergartens around the world tend to say that it's fine to just leave things alone, that nature is better, that we should just let things grow. This is the same with agriculture, but the more you leave things as they are, the more work it takes and the more craftsmanship is required. You actually have to touch the soil a lot, which is different from the method of just leaving things alone.

I don't just teach them about concepts and ideas, I teach them about experiences and let them see how our children and staff actually interact. On the second day of the training, I let them observe the daily life of the free school, and I gave them a lesson on the unique communication methods of the staff on the back channel.

Participants of the free school seminar (2016) watching the children's meeting

Ise
On the third day, we had the children experience what would happen inside and outside if they were in the same place. We would then reflect on what happened and release each other. We would practice being the person who would support the children in the situation and think about what is needed for the next stage.

The event will proceed over four days, with plenty of time to reflect on what has happened and share what has happened.

Nishimura
Then, Hayashi and his friends arrived.

Right: Yoshiaki Nishimura (CEO of Living World )

Ise
I knew instantly that Hayashi-san wanted to come, but I was worried that the other two executives would not be very enthusiastic about it. There would be a difference in their opinions, and they might think that I had said something outrageous again.

And it's not an easy thing to do, especially in this kind of environment. I mean, when someone from a company came and I greeted them at the opening, they asked me, "So, where will you do your training?" (laughs). I think they were surprised that, like, here?

So I thought it would be okay. There were concerns that it would have more undesirable impacts than we could have imagined. However, Mr. Hayashi said that it would be okay. I was skeptical. But if it was okay to a certain extent, I thought we could manage it.

Nishimura
What was it like for you and your team after four days of working there? With them there.

Ise
It has expanded and deepened. I realized that he is evolving here, not fitting in easily with us. He does it in his own way, not forcing us to hang out with him. He makes us feel comfortable.

He was watching from afar as other people were having fun playing in the mud, but instead of feeling separated because he couldn't join in, he felt a sense of connection. I think he probably wanted to learn about the value of being there. Like being in harmony while doing what you want to do.

So I had the feeling that something like a seed tree had arrived.

Nishimura
Mr. Hayashi, is there anything you would like to talk about from that experience?

Hayashi
I want to talk about something... Can I tell you what made me go there first? Recently, the company culture and rules have been changing. I call it "rulerization."

Nishimura
A ruler?

Hayashi
The company name, which was originally written in katakana, has been written in hiragana to become "Monosasu." The website is the catalyst for the change ^{to hiragana} .

*3 The name of our website, “Monosasu,” which was renewed in 2015, is the katakana version of our company name, “Monosasu,” written in hiragana.

The people who joined the company after the company's new initiatives and rules were posted on the index website were influenced by them. However, the company's systems have a continuity from before, so there is a mismatch between the people who have lived there until now and the rules, and it gradually builds up. I'm hardly ever at the company, so it doesn't bother me, but it bothers people who have been there all this time.

For example, if we had full flex time, no one would be at the morning meeting. And, Hayashi might not notice because he's hardly ever there, but there are days when there are no managers to talk to, and even though there are 70 members, there are days when only five people are doing it. What are you going to do about this?
I had been dodging such criticism for a long time, but one day, at a board meeting, I felt like I was being grabbed by the collar and told to just decide what to do. But I didn't want to just quit. That being said, I thought that even if I proposed new rules in this situation, the other two board members probably wouldn't accept it.

So when I was thinking about what to do, the morning meeting I first saw at TOEC came to mind, and I linked it to Monosus' morning meeting. I wasn't going to do exactly that, but I thought I'd have to take the executives to see it once first. But I couldn't find a date that would allow all the executives to come together and visit, so I looked at TOEC's website and saw that they have a seminar!
I thought this was the only option, but then I saw a sign saying "Fully booked." I realized this was the time to do the same thing a few times a year, prostrating myself. So I rolled up my sleeves and said, "I'll go and ask," and that's when I started to ask.

Takahiro Hayashi (CEO of Monosus)

Nishimura
So, what was it like going there, Hayashi-san?

Hayashi
How was it? I was happy.

Nishimura
What kind of happiness was that? (lol)

Hayashi
I wonder... I searched for the words that best fit, but perhaps I should say that the color has changed, or that the lens has changed...

Nishimura
The way the world looks.

Hayashi
That's right. I was able to see the members' faces and expressions right away.
It seems like my feelings were conveyed to the other members, as they told me that at one point, Hayashi really started listening to what they had to say.
I found those times extremely happy, and I began to think seriously about how I could incorporate relationships and such things into the company.

Nishimura
The colors changed, and I felt like I was seeing but not seeing, or hearing but not hearing.

Hayashi
Well, that has changed.

Almost everyone from Monosus is finally heading to TOEC.

Nishimura
After the seminar, I wonder if Tatsuro and his colleagues will come to him to discuss that all-employee camp?

Ise
Yes. But I think I had been consulted briefly before that... However, it would be impossible to have everyone camp in terms of physical capacity. If there was something else to do, it would be possible if it was an event like a festival... For example, if it rained, it would be devastating, and so on. At first.

Also, that month happened to be an event month, so I was worried that the staff would get exhausted and say, "Eh!", but we unanimously agreed to go ahead with it. So we decided to make major changes to our working hours and put in place a system that would allow us to do it.

Nishimura
What exactly did you do?

Ise
Well, during the preliminary meeting, we talked about having the staff experience this place together. And, well, how should I put it, we felt like we had to win this...

Nishimura
Do I have to win? Win or lose? (laughs)

Ise
If they're going to leave it all to me like this, I can't lose. It's not like, "I tried my best, so it's okay." For example, when it comes to rain, it never rains.

Nishimura and Hayashi
(lol)

Ise
There are people who come to TOEC for fun and are interested in it, but there are also a significant proportion of people who wonder why they came, or who think it's fine if it's just for one day. I think there are more people like that, so I wanted to create a place for them first. I mean, to properly acknowledge the phenomenon that each person is experiencing.

So I thought I'd make sure to say "That's right." I spoke slowly, but I was giving it my all. I was talking quite ramblingly, but in my heart I was feeling like "This is where the first fight will be decided." When I actually said "That's right," there was a reaction.

Ise giving a speech to the Monosus members on the day of the camp.

Ise
After that, I created a program that did something called mapping. I stretched a rope on the ground, created axes for "stamina" and "motivation," and asked things like, "What state are you in?"

The ground was covered with a matrix of "stamina > no (blue rope)" and "motivation > no (green rope)" axes. Participants stood close to where they were at the time.

Ise
What's even better is that one of the executives isn't even motivated.

Nishimura and Hayashi
(lol)

Ise
That's what you interview them about. Isn't it great that you can bring everyone in as executives and express that? If this is OK, then it's totally OK for people who aren't like that.
I also interview people who are motivated but have drunk too much and their bodies are in ruins, or people who are outsiders.

After that, we did a trial free school. We had a meeting and played around here. It ended in the evening, and 6-7 people gathered around "Enta-kun" and asked each other about how their day went. We changed members and did about 3 rounds of that. We listened to each other's thoughts and realizations.

The children gather around "Enta-kun," a circular cardboard box with craft paper on top, and place him on each other's laps, taking notes on what each other say.

Ise
In the last hour, we played Fishbowl. The 4-5 people in the middle talk about what they've noticed and learned, and when they leave, new people join in. This was also fun.

The start of the fish bowl. The person sitting in the middle talks about how they felt in their own words. It's OK to leave or sit down at any time.

Ise
There were some kids who were like, "It was fun, but so what?" That's already a great and helpful message, isn't it? Because there will definitely be a response there. You want to listen as carefully as possible. I think it was a pretty good opportunity. There was no landing point, and it ended with just talking, and then it was a social gathering. It's my specialty, so I put all my effort into it. I'm happy to entertain them.

A social gathering between Toek and Monosus. We were treated to a meal of dried fish and sashimi made from local fish caught in Anan, Tokushima Prefecture, where Toek is located, and plenty of vegetables from Toek Farm.

Nishimura
This is a first for TOEC.

Ise
That's a first for me. I don't think there will be another time like that.

Nishimura
Let's play together.

Ise
The staff was also really into it. My daughter Namu even went to visit Monosus in Yoyogi (laughs). The next morning, I saw off the large bus that was taking everyone there and back, and it was quite an incident in the neighborhood association.

*Details of the camping trip can be found in the second half of the article " Monosus' 13th Anniversary: We went to Tokushima. "

Creating a space where each individual can feel "free."
Tatsuro is a great senior.

Nishimura
Why did you want to create a day like that, Mr. Hayashi? And more importantly, what do you want from TOEK?

Hayashi
What do you want? (laughs) Hmm... The first word that comes to mind right now is, I want to become one.

Nishimura
I kinda want to become one with them (laughs).
With TOEC? Or is it that Monosus as a company itself wants to become more integrated?

Hayashi
This may be a bit misleading, but I want Monosus and Toek to become one. Or rather, they're already one, right? That's the sort of feeling I have. I don't even feel like I'm doing anything different in the first place.

Nishimura
A web company and a free school. I don't feel like I'm doing anything different.

Hayashi
I don't feel that way. It's true that we make money differently, but I think that what we're trying to do is the same. Tatsuro is a senior. So it's difficult to say what I'm looking for... I think that if we properly install TOEC in Monosus, there will be something beyond that.

Nishimura
You said that when you first came to TOEC, it felt good to see all the children standing up. Mr. Hayashi, you want the people from your company to stand up and be in front of you too.

Hayashi
Yes, it is. It definitely is.

Nishimura
What's the point of everyone standing up?

Hayashi
I wonder what would be good about it (laughs).

Nishimura
But is that the situation you want?

Hayashi
That's right. I'm looking for something. I wonder what would be good for me...

Nishimura
Is it natural for you, Ise-san, to say that it's "standing"?

Ise
No. Standing on your own means you're free.

Nishimura
Can you elaborate a bit more? What does it mean for a person to be free?

Ise
It's not about doing what you want outside of society or harmony, but being able to be yourself without depending on others, in a place of diversity and community. That's why we can be together. It's free and creative. It's happy and democratic.

Nishimura
Dependence tends to sound like a bad word, but is dependence bad?

Ise
Unconscious dependency is annoying. I really love being pampered.

Funasan (hereafter referred to as "Funasan")
Tatsuro, I'm extremely dependent on you.

Funasan (Yuki Watanabe, TOEC staff)

Everyone
(lol)

Ise
It's worse if you're aware of it (laughs).

Nishimura
"Being free" means not being unconsciously dependent on others. If we did that, we wouldn't be able to be together.

Ise
That's right. You end up using the other person as a tool. In that case, you should ask "Can I use you for my own benefit?" and tell them thank you. It's not good to use them as a tool without their permission.

Nishimura
What kind of child do you want to raise through TOEC?

Ise
Well, I can make my own decisions and proceed with what I want in a harmonious way…
I'm quite an outsider, and I hate authority. But I think I'm committed to society. Even if I want to change something, I'll do what I want to do with my footing in society. I think everyone has their own way of doing things, but I think I'm the kind of person who judges what happens on their own and reacts and responds to it.

Nishimura
That person can participate in society while remaining true to themselves. They can get involved. That kind of person will grow up, or rather, be born. We will create such places one by one until the time of graduation from elementary school.
What kind of situation do you want to create?

Hayashi
I think it should be the same on the right.

Nishimura
Do you want to create that within your company?

Hayashi
Yes. Or rather, within the company. There is awareness of the issue that the role of the company is changing, and my hypothesis is that it would be good if it could take on the role that Mr. Ise mentioned.

Nishimura
What is the company's role? Tell me more.

Hayashi
I think there's a fairly common understanding of companies among our generation, but in the long history of humankind, they haven't been around for that long.
When we started making things in factories, I think they were designed to increase the productivity of each individual through mass production, but in the future I think it will be machines and computers that increase productivity.
If that happens, then conversely, I think humans will take on more unproductive roles. Then, whether we like it or not, we will have to think more about what we want to do. I think that this is very similar to freedom.

I feel like people are starting to feel anxious about this, and it's starting to move Japan and the world. I'd like to offer my own answer to that question, and one of the things I can do is show you here.

Regarding the word "freedom".

Nishimura
On the way here in the car, you said that you didn't really like to use the word "freedom." Can you explain that a bit?

Hayashi
I think it would be okay if it was a school, but I don't think it would be okay if it was a "free company."

Nishimura
(lol)

Hayashi
At my company, we talk about "freedom and responsibility" as a set, but next to that there is the concept of "rights and obligations."
When I looked into the origins of the word "freedom," I found that it's actually quite old in Japanese, and isn't used in a very positive sense. It means things like "free and unrestrained," "to do as one pleases," or "dissolute behavior." When I looked up the English words liberty and freedom, I found that they sound like something a privileged class would do with their privileges.

Ise
It's like leisure time.

Hayashi
Yes. That was the nuance of the meaning. I wondered if there was anything else, and then I found out that the word "raku" in "rakuichi rakuza" from the Azuchi-Momoyama period was also used to mean "freedom."

"Raku" is originally a pictograph of a musical instrument, and Toek-san often plays music, but in a place where there is music, it's fine to just listen, but music that entertains people can't be acquired without training, so training is necessary after all. I felt a great sense of relief inside me.

You need skills to have fun, and you also need skills to entertain others. That's fun for both of us. I'm having fun, and you're having fun. Working is fun, and living is fun. I'd like to pursue that.

I also think another reason why I don't use the word "freedom" is that I don't really like the work style reforms that are being talked about in society, and I don't want to be lumped together with the "freedom" that is used there.

Nishimura
Ise-san, do you have any thoughts about what we've just said?

Ise
"Fun". I thought it was a good story. But I like the word "freedom"... I like the last word. I think "freedom" is good, and the word "freedom" has power. Not the freedom of leisure or anti-control, but the power of fundamental freedom.

It's not like a bonus free time between classes, but rather, it's about not calculating, and when you get to know your basics, you "free yourself," and I think it's a relaxed way of doing things. I like the idea of "living your own life."

Ise
Nowadays, the word "freedom" is used not only in companies, but also in the education world... Especially when it comes to free schools, the Kojien dictionary even describes them as "a place for those who refuse to go to school."

Nishimura
(lol)

Ise
It doesn't say "a school of free ways" or even "a school of learning to be free", so I don't think it's a good explanation. But I just like it.

How do you see each other now?

Nishimura
At first, I connected the two of them without any particular intention, but halfway through, I noticed that Hayashi and the others were increasingly involved, and Ise and Funa also seemed to find Hayashi and the others interesting, so before we knew it, I was watching them from the sidelines.
Just now I even said something like "I want to become one."
I'm watching with a warm heart, wondering how far it will go.
Finally, I would like to hear how you feel about Mr. Ise and Mr. Hayashi, and how you feel about Mr. Ise, as of today.

Hayashi
This is from a junior of mine.

Nishimura
Got it (lol).

Hayashi
I don't know what I think of Tatsuro, but I can say for sure that I really like him (laughs).

I mentioned this to Tatsuro while drinking the other day, but I think that while TOEC's ideas and way of being are unshakable within him, he feels a sense of regret that they are not being spread to the world. When Tatsuro first seemed to be fired up about the e-mail magazine issue, that's what I thought on my own. It may not be the case, but maybe I want it to be (laughs).

I thought it would be nice to help spread this idea in the field of education, but one day I thought it might be more effective if I put it in business. That way, the value would be reevaluated and it would spread more, and it's also something I want to do myself. So Tatsuro is in the education field, and I'm in the business field, and we're doing the same thing back to back.

I said something like, "I'm going to take over Tatsuro-san's work." It's not like I'm taking over Toek or anything like that, but I think I feel like, "I'm going to prove that what Tatsuro-san has done for the past 30 years has definitely had an impact on the world."

I had 10 years where I had to do my best to protect our company, but before that, Tatsuro had been solidifying the idea of "freedom" for 30 years. I'm very grateful that I'm in a position where I can learn from that, so I hope that it will be properly incorporated into the company and spread to the world, and I approach it with the feeling that we have to get our company in order first.

Nishimura
Yes. Thank you.

In Toek's case, the talk about "freedom" isn't abstract, it's very concrete. The way he handles freedom. In this case, he does it like this, in that case, he does it like that. I think that's what's amazing about it. We can talk about freedom as an ideal or freedom as a concept, but I think what's amazing about you is that you're so specific in every way.

Ise
It's existentialism.

Nishimura
It's amazing how this can be shared. Also, Ise-san doesn't find it that difficult to write, even though many people find this difficult. He has the senses and the words to express them...

Um, from Ise-san to Hayashi-san...

Ise
Oh, I see.

Hayashi
It's embarrassing.

Ise
I think it's a challenge to be able to enjoy this place even as you move steadily towards business. I want to be like that too, so that's the biggest thing I like about him.

He's smart, but he can also drink and is charming. I'm not really interested in things that are over, I want to move on to the next thing, but I think Hayashi is also searching for the next interesting thing on his own terms, and I can really sympathize with that. But he's in the business world, so I think that's interesting.

They're doing things that are completely out of our reach. The units they're working on are different. For example, even if they say they're going to do training, that many people are coming from Tokyo and Thailand... They also have to prepare buses to come from Kamiyama. If it were TOEC, we'd be like, "What should we do?" right away, but it's a whole different world...

Nishimura
Hayashi-san says it's "another world." It seems like it feels like a completely different world.

Hayashi
(laughs) In my mind, I just think of it as the same world.

Nishimura
Ok, that's all for today.

Ise
I just want to say one thing. I was aiming for it at some point. Well, there are various reactions to the website, but there are many things I don't know, so it just came to mind in this situation... Since I don't know the reaction, I'm calling it "Half reaction" ^*4 ...

※4 This is a play on the phrase “half farming, half X” (a lifestyle in which half of your life is spent farming a small amount of food for yourself and your family, and the rest of your time is spent doing what you want to do, “X”). (laughs)

Nishimura and Hayashi
…(lol).

Carp
That's what I wanted to say.

Hayashi
Right now, both Nishimura and I were wondering what Tatsuro was going to say, and we were probably holding our catcher's mitt as deep as possible...

Ise
I thought this atmosphere was bad (laughs).

Everyone
(lol)

Nishimura
I wanted to say it.

Ise
Right. I thought it would be a shame to leave this unsaid.

Nishimura
Okay. I understand. Title: "Half-X Reaction"!
Let's eat, let's eat.