A place where you can learn "freedom" from Nature School TOEC. - Part 1 -
Speakers: Tatsuro Ise, Takahiro Hayashi / Interviewer: Yoshiaki Nishimura

The speakers for today's Meguru Measashi are Tatsuro Ise, representative of the NPO Nature School TOEC (TOEC) ^*1 , and Monosus representative Hayashi. The interviewer is Yoshiaki Nishimura.

The relationship between Ise and Hayashi began when Nishimura approached Hayashi about consulting on creating a website for TOEC.
Hayashi was increasingly fascinated by TOEC's way of working and its way of interacting with people. His passion was so strong that he took almost all of the Monosus members to TOEC in Tokushima Prefecture last November.
One month later, TOEC's website, which had been revamped over the course of two years, was launched.
Toek and Monosas, Ise and Hayashi, what exactly has happened and what changes have occurred in these two years?
Nishimura, who connected the two and continues to watch over them with warmth, interviewed the two of them, and we will present the interview in two parts.
(Interviewer: Yoshiko Nakaniwa)

*1 A free school in Anan City, Tokushima Prefecture. It is a free school where children learn through interactions with people and nature, and also offers camping and outdoor activities, as well as child-rearing support, counseling, and seminars.

The story of how Toek and Monosus met.

Mr. Nishimura (hereafter referred to as "honorific titles omitted")
So let's start with how we met.
I'll start by saying a bit. I wonder how long I've known Mr. Ise. I think ^it was at the 2002 National Educational Workshop Forum.

*2 A nationwide educational workshop forum held from 2002 to 2004 to discuss workshops. Nishimura was the executive chairman. Ise was invited as a guest to the first forum.

Mr. Ise (hereafter referred to as "Ise-san")
You interviewed me then, right? That was published in a book called "How to Learn to Interact" ^*3 .

*3 Yoshiaki Nishimura, author of "How to Learn to Involve," Chikuma Shobo, 2012, Amazon

Tatsuro Ise (Representative of NPO Nature School TOEC)

Nishimura
That's right. I've learned a lot from you over the past 15 years, but I also feel like you're an older friend who's spent time with me.
So Ise-san and his team were doing this TOEC and I really liked it too.

But the website was a big challenge. Funa-chan (Yuki Watanabe, TOEC staff) bought the applications and put them together, but depending on the browser, they didn't display the same way, they were unclickable, and it gradually fell apart like a bird taking apart and flying away (laughs).

I proposed to set aside a budget and redesign the website about two years ago. I was hesitant. Whenever we redesign a website, the people at the nature school I know always ask, "How much did that cost?" Even if the amount is 3 million yen or even 1 million yen, they're likely to say, "Wow, that's expensive!"
However, if you want to do it properly, it will cost money, so I wondered what to do.
It was around this time that Monosus began to get more involved with Kamiyama, including creating a website for the town of Kamiyama.

Hayashi
I agree.

Nishimura
I have also been in contact with Hayashi-san over the past few years.
When I work, whether it's with the staff I work with or when I introduce people to each other, it's not about specs, it's about chemistry. Like, you can have dinner with these people every day and not feel awkward (laughs).
Someone who doesn't seem to mind if there's nothing in particular to talk about and there are periods of silence. Well, that was the case with Hayashi-san, so I connected him. That's about it.

Yoshiaki Nishimura (CEO of Living World )

Hayashi
Was it that light-hearted?

Nishimura
It feels light (laughs).
I would like to introduce TOECK to people I like, so I would simply like to go and hang out with Hayashi-san.
Also, I was trying to say, "Maybe we could discuss something about the production costs?" That was my humble intention. I think what happened between the two of them exceeded my intention.

After that, many things started happening, but today I would like to hear from you about what actually happened and what you each think about each other.

First impression of Toek: "Oh, these kids are standing up."

Nishimura
What was your impression when you first came to TOEC?

Hayashi
When I first came here, I got into a little fight with a boy and a girl at TOEK. The boy got into a fight with me and hit me with a wooden stick (laughs).

Takahiro Hayashi (CEO of Monosus)

Nishimura
That was my first interaction (laughs).

Hayashi
Also, when I talked to some girls, it felt good. It felt like I was with one person. When I interact with children, they become dependent on me, like, "I want to play, so I want to use you."

Ise
It's like he's asking me to play with him.

Hayashi
That's true. But the TOEC children really gave me the feeling that, "Wow, they're standing up!"

Nishimura
That feels good.

Hayashi
It felt really good. I don't really like being dependent on others. There are times when I feel like I'm being dragged into it, like they're holding onto me and won't let me go, and I really hate that, but I thought that the kids at TOEC weren't like that.

Children from a kindergarten and a free school (elementary school) playing with TOEC

Nishimura
I see

Hayashi
I asked Tatsuro about it in detail, but he dodged the question... I later heard that he had a terrible hangover that day and didn't want to bother answering (laughs).

Nishimura
Oh my (lol).

Ise
It was pretty bad, like once every few years. But I remember he asked me some deep questions. Well, I had a hunch that it wouldn't continue with Hayashi-san, so I didn't have to give such a good response now, but I thought I'd be able to manage it.
But it's nice to hear "The child is standing." There are people who feel the opposite too.

Nishimura
The opposite person?

Ise
People who arouse children's dependency. They feel happy when they are needed, so they end up playing with them. They become tools. This happens often in the general education world too. Moreover, they don't like it when they are overly involved, so they push them away. And then the children don't know how to behave.
People who see that a child is "standing" properly don't expect or respond to that kind of thing from their children, so it's like a good distance. I think it was a good fit for both sides.

Nishimura
So, Mr. Hayashi's question was something like, "Why are the children setting these up?"

Hayashi
I don't remember it in detail anymore, but yes, I remember asking a question like that.
At that time, there was talk about possibly creating a website, so I think the interview was about what these people do.

Ise
They asked me things like, "Why are there no classes? What are the staff doing?" I answered, looking like I was annoyed, something like, "I don't want to cut the process." This is a phrase that requires a lot of explanation. Then, they asked me more questions, and I was like, "Well, there are a lot of things."
The staff member also gave a vague answer, saying something like "We try not to get in the way." Naturally, I think they asked something like "What's the point?", but they just rambled on about it.

Nishimura
Um... Are you okay today?

Ise
Hehehe...

It's the "on the way" that makes it interesting and educational.

Nishimura
What do you mean, "I don't want to kill the process"?

Ise
I think that doing things efficiently means dividing, designing, and structuring. Whether it's baseball practice or schoolwork, people try to do a lot of things efficiently by dividing up the work, but we want to do the opposite.

Nishimura
Want to do the opposite?

Ise
I want to do the opposite. In the first place, experiential learning is supposed to be about doing the opposite, but experiential learning is the worst. There are procedures and instructions that say, "If you do this, this will happen," or at worst, it's like a cooking show, where you actually have to boil something for five minutes, but they prepare the finished product for you.
Whether it's a workshop or experiential learning, it's said that leadership and educational effectiveness lie in how you contribute to moving the lesson forward properly, rather than the process. You could also call it facilitation ability.

But I think there is more to learn from the "process" than from the final product. The process of how people react to each other and what they do transcends the intentions and expectations of the people involved, so that's more exciting and interesting. I think this difference is big.

When something happens, we get excited, but people who only do structured things freeze up and try to get things back on track, which is what they call leadership. They do very similar things, but I think they're different.

That being said, whether structured or unstructured, it's all within a certain frame. But the more loose the frame, the more interesting things happen. Individual things come to life beyond the pre-made design, and it's harmonious. The place can be incredibly beautiful and energetic.
So it's best not to kill the process if possible.
Even something as trivial as, "Dinner will be ready in about an hour" or "Where are you going?" cuts off the process, doesn't it? I end up saying a lot of unimportant things like that.

Well, I'm not being too dogmatic, but the less things to cut, the more interesting the process becomes. So I try to keep everyone together as little as possible, and I try to have each child eat at their own pace according to their own body channel.
We think that this is more interesting and has educational power. Rather than learning freely, the educational power lies in the process of freedom. I think that the axis is that it is not the process that does the work, but the process that does the work.

However, I think this is incompatible with improving productivity. This is a difficult point to come to for industrial society and corporations.

Nishimura
Rather than working hard to reach an expected goal or dividing things into parts and doing things efficiently, things happen and become what they are. Whether or not you know about this process gives you a lot more freedom.

Ise
I forgot if it was someone I really respect, but there was a phrase called "nature becoming." For example, even man-made objects, when they break and roll, stop at the strongest point. Even those ugly tetrapods are still in pretty good condition after 60 to 70 years.

Nishimura
Not bad. It blends in with the others (laughs).

Ise
If you continue the process without interrupting it, the end result will be stronger and more beautiful, and the whole will be brought to a relatively good place.

"No hurry" website production.

Nishimura
After that first encounter and your interest in TOEC, please tell us about the process that led you to accept the job of renewing the site.

Hayashi
I think we met again about a month or two after our first meeting.
So I asked Tatsuro (Ise Tatsuro) about TOEC's business situation in detail. How many students they had, how many children they had, what problems they were having, and so on. I told him right there and then, "You have to get your school lunch money."

Nishimura
Suddenly I was in management (laughs).

Hayashi
At that time, actually, I had a big story going on inside my mind.
Tatsuro quietly mentioned that he would like staff members Poo-san (Nakamoto Keiko) and Suga-san (Tone Kiyoko) to teach not only the children, but also the educators.

When I heard that story, I strongly felt that Tatsuro didn't want to leave what he was doing at TOEC there. I think it was just my own feeling. But I also somehow got the impression that he didn't have any intention to expand the school itself. I let it sit in my mind for about a year and a half.

Nishimura
Ise-san, what do you think about that?

Ise
There are some things I can't say yes or no to. But I have no desire to lock myself away, and it's true that such thoughts are emerging within me. I feel that by putting things together, I can contribute to society, children, and many other areas...

Nishimura
There have always been people saying they want to be taught by TOEC or come to learn.

Ise
Yes, there are. Especially in the past few years, there have been a lot of them.

Hayashi
At that time, we were talking about how there were some vacancies in the kindergarten's capacity and that was a problem, but I was always wondering where I was going to get the money to cover the costs of the website. Is there anything I can do? I was always looking for ways to do that.
Also, when I asked him if he wanted to do a paid e-mail newsletter, Tatsuro's enthusiasm, which was so low the first time, suddenly rose dramatically. He really took the bait.

Ise
It's still there today!

Nishimura
(lol)

Hayashi
Well, I was thinking about that too, but we settled on just making a normal website for now. But then I was worried about what to do about Tatsuro's motivation, which was so fired up at the time, because I felt like I had kind of fueled it (laughs).

Ise
I remember that. It still gets me going.

Hayashi
After that, I think we had meetings once or twice a month for almost a year.

Nishimura
What did you pay attention to during the production process?

Hayashi
I guess I'm in no hurry (laughs).

Nishimura
Are you in a hurry? To create?

Hayashi
One reason is that I have become less involved in projects. Also, if there is no budget, we will use it to help our staff. We will have Nishimura-san look at the design, or have employees in the company learn about TOEC. One reason is that taking a long process allows for more twists and turns.

Another thing is that I've been able to make better things recently when I'm not in a hurry. When the deadline passes, the process of delivering the work starts, and I wonder who decides on this? But if I take my time, I often end up in a situation where no one has decided on it, but it's like this is it.

We wanted to create a website that would be redesigned without any awkwardness, so we had a lot of back and forth with Toek. For example, we would submit a design proposal, and even though Tatsuro said it was fine, we would redesign it without permission, like two or three times (laughs).

Ise
The first meeting was shocking. It was fun! It was dynamic. We came up with three amazing designs that our staff couldn't have come up with even if they put all their efforts into it, and they were all great.
There are light ones, medium ones, and strong ones with a strong outdoor orientation.
All of them were easy to understand, sophisticated, and stood upright. Even an amateur like me thought they were wonderful. It was difficult to choose, and I was in a difficult position. I thought this one was a bit too outdoorsy, and I thought maybe this one, and after much deliberation, I ended up discarding all three.

Nishimura
Myself (lol).

Ise
Huh?! It was like that. They did such a good job, and the reason they rejected it was "it's not good to be easy to understand." What a concept. It was like a light bulb went off... We made so many self-destructive flyers, and we were finally able to make it even a little easier to understand. And they were like, "That's it?" That was interesting.

Nishimura
What do you think about the process that Hayashi-san mentioned, of "taking it easy and not rushing"?

Ise
That in itself is very interesting, and it would still be interesting even if the website was never completed.

Nishimura
What kind of company did Monosus seem to you like back then?

Ise
Well, first of all, the outside has a sophisticated feel. Even though the office is in Kamiyama, which is in the countryside, it's beautiful, and the people there are smart. Web design and consulting are jobs that are the furthest away from us. I've only been to Hakuhodo once, but I felt like there were no people like that around me.
I felt the same kind of thing, but when we started talking, the way he handled things, or rather the atmosphere, was so similar (laughs). He wasn't pushy, and he didn't change his attitude too quickly. I thought that was a good feeling.

Nishimura
It doesn't seem like they're trying to do things as efficiently as possible, in the shortest possible time, or in the smartest way possible.

Ise
That's right. I think they are really conscious of other values as well.

Nishimura
While you were feeling that way, were there any difficult moments as you continued working?

Hayashi
No, I don't.

Nishimura
Isn't it? It moves forward slowly.

Hayashi
It moves forward slowly. It's like, "This is fine."

Ask the whole question, "How do you really want to be?"

Nishimura
So, what was the reaction of those around you when it was released in December last year?

Top page of the "TOEC" website, which was renewed in December 2017

Ise
As for the people who come to my house, they say it's really interesting, they read it slowly, and some people really like it. Some people even said things like "That's really innovative."

Funasan (hereafter referred to as "Funasan")
I often hear that people read books in their spare time while raising their children.
Also, I wondered if there was a way to do this.

Funasan (Yuki Watanabe, TOEC staff). She was in charge of renewing the website.

Nishimura
Is this a method?

Carp
Many websites start with a photo or video, and that's the way they present themselves, to get people interested in your activities. I wondered if the Toek website would be created in the same way.

However, there is something about TOEC that cannot be conveyed through images alone. Even if people take the trouble to visit, some are shocked when they see the buildings, people, and activities on the surface. I felt that something was not quite right.
Hayashi-san told me, "We need to make this a site that allows people to properly understand the kind of content that is being presented here," so it felt right to create a "site to read," and I've gotten a lot of nice responses from people around me, like, "I was surprised to see so much text all of a sudden, but the more I read the better it gets."

Also, I was told that it was good that Tatsuro-san had accumulated so much writing. He said that it was good to be able to read it while feeling the history. So, I think it was exactly what I was aiming for.

Nishimura
In terms of our aim, we would like to create more opportunities for Pooh Yasuga to teach, such as through free camps and workshop training. I think we will see a response from that side in the future, but if you have any thoughts on this now, please let us know.

Carp
It's just been released, so I haven't had much of a response yet. However, now that the website is complete, I'm sad that I won't be meeting with Monosas as often as I used to (laughs). During the process of creating the website, I was inspired by Hayashi's words and reflected them in the operation and programming. I thought it was time to put Suga-san and Pooh-san in the foreground.

Nishimura
Mr. Hayashi, is it fairly common for you to not just create websites, but also to be involved in things like improving operations, or the structure of the organization, or management?

Hayashi
That's right. There are times when it's not possible to do so at a large company, but generally I try to be involved.

Nishimura
What's your mindset?

Hayashi
I started doing the marketing for my own company myself, and that was a big thing.

There are methods in marketing, and some of them are easy to do, like if you do this, you can read the reaction to a certain extent. There are things like, psychologically, if you do this, people will move, or, this is what's popular in the world, so if you follow that, this is what will happen.

But when I tried to market my company myself, I couldn't write anything. I didn't want to write things like that. Even if I just wrote a catchy slogan like this, I knew I would get a lot of inquiries, but I just couldn't write it.

Nishimura
When it comes to myself.

Hayashi
(laughs) So, I spent a lot of time writing it and it was painful, but on the other hand, I realized that I had been making my audience do the same thing up until then. I thought that I had been forcing them to say things that they probably didn't want to say to the whole world. That experience was a big one for me.
From there, I started asking questions like, "If you say this, your company's sales might increase, but I'm sure you don't want to say that, right?"

Hayashi
Also, it wasn't on the web, but I once sent out a newsletter about how I really felt and how I wanted to take care of my customers. When I sent it out, someone made a point of replying to me and saying, "I want to work with a company like yours." After that, sales started going smoothly.

So I came up with the hypothesis that maybe if a company or organization expressed how they really wanted to be, or how they wanted to interact with the world, they would be able to make more sales. If that were the case, it wouldn't be enough to just ask, "How do you create a website?"

I began to interact with them as a whole person, observing their reactions when I showed them things, asking questions like, "Why are you in this type of business?", "What is it that you really want to communicate?", and "For example, what do you think of this?"

<To be continued in the second part >